Treatment Free

[1amanda1]

pargyle.

Nothing disparaging about my short comment but I can see I hit a nerve with you because you're another who doesn't care about nearby beekeepers.

Now, who are you to tell anyone to leave this forum?

Fred.

I find your comments derogatory, insulting and disrespectful. I was hoping to have a civil conversation about the different methods we use as beekeepers, not to be libelled and derided.

 

[user 6228]

Going TF you need to be aware of your surrounding bee population. For instance I have seen about 1km away an apiary with 50+ colonies all on an plot of about 1/2 acre being used for bee breeding in the midst of an suburban area surrounded by houses. Somewhere else closer to us is a source of about 5+ swarms each year (5 this year, 11 in 2019). We are TF but we know we are up against it, despite ensuring we have widely spaced out hives and low thermal stress.

 

[1amanda1]

I’d also like to ask - is it realistic/possible to move towards treatment free with just a few colonies.
Neil

When I went treatment free, I only had 2 colonies and was fairly new to beekeeping. Coming into winter, both my hives had a lot of varroa and DWV. I gave them a dose of Thymol on the advice of the bee inspector. When I got back to my house, I realised how awful the thymol smelled and decided not to give them the second dose and to just see how they got on, hoping that one dose would be enough. I fed them plenty of sugar syrup to see them through the winter. They were still alive next spring and I haven't treated them since. Many beeks in our association don't treat whilst others do. It's a difficult decision to make, but maybe a group could get together to stop treating, and then you could cover each other's losses if need be. It's definitely not about not inspecting your bees. For me, it is about breeding stronger bees where they can deal with varroa and where the varroa have maybe evolved not to kill off their host.

I'd be interested in other people's experience of TF beekeeping and how they got there.

 

[captain666]

Amanda,

Don't take it so much to heart.

I responded to your post by saying something about 'farmers and fences' which you obviously took offence to. Then someone, not you, told me to leave this board and go elsewhere. If I can handle that, then perhaps you can handle my view and you did ask for views.

Please don't expect everyone to respond with posts that only please you. That will never work for any post or anyone.

My reference to, 'good farmers have good fences' means it protects not only their stock but those of their neighbours from disease.

Honeybees obviously fly so fences are of no use in keeping disease at bay.

So quite honestly, if there was a beekeeper in my neck of the woods who didn't treat their bees when necessary, I would certainly not be happy. I'm not talking about varroa here, for we all need to treat for this regardless.

Keep in mind, not every field bee may make it home and 'will ask' to enter the nearest colony. Therein lies the problem for others.

Fred.

 

[bingevader]

Going TF you need to be aware of your surrounding bee population. For instance I have seen about 1km away an apiary with 50+ colonies all on an plot of about 1/2 acre being used for bee breeding in the midst of an suburban area surrounded by houses. Somewhere else closer to us is a source of about 5+ swarms each year (5 this year, 11 in 2019). We are TF but we know we are up against it, despite ensuring we have widely spaced out hives and low thermal stress.

Indeed! This is why we haven't gone TF in school! Surrounded by treaters, so all progeny will be a mix of genes and traits.

 

[Buzzlodge]

We are TF but we know we are up against it, despite ensuring we have widely spaced out hives and low thermal stress.

Genuine questions; Why go treatment free if you know you are up against it?
And given that varroa is endemic, why should the presence of nearby, presumably infested hives matter, since your own are also infested?
And finally, if the objective is breeding resistant bees, the objective should be to ruthlessly encourage failure of the more varroa susceptible colonies as a way to improve genetics, but treatment free people seems to report few losses.
Seeley estimated that bees in an area would rapidly develop resistance to varroa, but only after enduring 90% colony losses.

 

[bingevader]

My reference to, 'good farmers have good fences' means it protects not only their stock but those of their neighbours from disease.

Honeybees obviously fly so fences are of no use in keeping disease at bay.

So quite honestly, if there was a beekeeper in my neck of the woods who didn't treat their bees when necessary, I would certainly not be happy. I'm not talking about varroa here, for we all need to treat for this regardless.

Keep in mind, not every field bee may make it home and 'will ask' to enter the nearest colony. Therein lies the problem for others.

But just think this through!

Honeybees obviously fly so fences are of no use in keeping disease at bay.

More people treat than don't. You are more likely to get varroa from those that treat than those that don't. It's a bogus argument.

 

[captain666]

Varroa is very easily managed and should done by everyone by TREATING.

 

[captain666]

To the general forum.

I haven't been on a beekeeping forum for many years but now on this forum I see there is somewhat of a new movement towards 'Treatment Free' beekeeping.

So my first question is:-

What is their mission? Is to let the bees manage varroa themselves in the hope that eventually a varroa resistant bee evolves. Kinda like 'what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.'

Second question:-

Would someone please define 'Treatment Free.'

Fred.

 

[happyculteur]

So my first question is:-

What is their mission? Is to let the bees manage varroa themselves in the hope that eventually a varroa resistant bee evolves. Kinda like 'what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.'

For me, the idea is not to develop varroa resistant bees, but to encourage an evolution where bees and varroa can co exist. We can never get rid of varroa. Can we go on treating forever ?

 

[bobthecob]

Would someone please define 'Treatment Free.'

Fred, generally this means not putting anything into a hive that is a treatment for something. And since varroa is pretty much the only thing that most beekeepers would treat for, "treatment free" can be read to mean "varroa treatment free".

Many "treatment free" beekeepers do add food (syrup, fondant) if the bees are in danger of starving. However, since many treatment free beekeepers feel that it is right to leave the bees with as much of their own honey as they need for the dearth periods, there is often less of a need for feeding anyway.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Varroa is very easily managed and should done by everyone by TREATING.

In your opinion
There is room for both, Beekeepers who treat and those that don’t.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’d like this thread to continue as a discussion in treatment free but not as a platform for those who do to harangue those that don’t. Strangely it doesn’t seem to happen the other way round so much. If there are any more posts simply designed to provoke, that member will get a short holiday from this thread.

 

[1amanda1]

So quite honestly, if there was a beekeeper in my neck of the woods who didn't treat their bees when necessary, I would certainly not be happy.

There probably is, but I think they certainly wouldn't tell you.
Pete, you remind me of the delegates who jumped down my throat when I asked about treatment free beekeeping about 10 years ago; as a new beekeeper I didn't know this was a taboo subject. I went to the WBKA conference last year where they let one of our members give a talk about being treatment-free and talked to many people who told me they were treatment free but didn't tell anyone as they got such a bad reaction. There are more of us out there than you think. People are so cross with us not treating and are happy to throw around wild accusations about the state of our bees without ever seeing them.

Honeybees obviously fly so fences are of no use in keeping disease at bay.

Wild colonies are untreated, so the argument about "farmers and fences" is spurious.

I'm not talking about varroa here, for we all need to treat for this regardless.

The majority of beeks in my association do not treat for Varroa and haven't done so for years. We have had government officials and beekeeping delegates from Switzerland come and visit our association as they have been treating for Varroa for 35 years and it hasn't worked. You can read all about it and treatment- free beekeeping in the WBKA "Welsh Beekeeper" winter 2019 issue on the WBKA website.

We did take our fair share of losses due to Varroa, but we believe our colonies are now stronger. We believe the bees have adapted to deal with the mite more efficiently and that maybe the mite has developed so that it no longer kills its host colony.

 

[Erichalfbee]

People confuse treatment free with leave alone. The two are vastly different.

 

[drdrday]

Varroa is very easily managed and should done by everyone by TREATING.

Everyone has the right to treat or not treat their bees as they see fit.
Deriding others for their own opinions and preferences just because we don't share them is the surest way to remain ignorant. The beauty of this forum is how it gives us all a space to share our thoughts and ideas, pick and choose what might work for us, and hopefully, as a result, learn to become better beekeepers - of all types.

 

[Levitt53]

To the general forum.

I haven't been on a beekeeping forum for many years but now on this forum I see there is somewhat of a new movement towards 'Treatment Free' beekeeping.

So my first question is:-

What is their mission? Is to let the bees manage varroa themselves in the hope that eventually a varroa resistant bee evolves. Kinda like 'what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.'

Second question:-

Would someone please define 'Treatment Free.'

Fred.

I see it more giving the bees a chance to live with varroa. If we don't try we'll never know. I have kept bees for 6 years and only treated them in the first year. Since then I haven't even thought about it. I lost one colony to varroa this year but I don't want to breed from them if they can't cope so that is fine, I just shook them out. I know I haven't been doing it for long enough to prove anything. If you treat you should do it under the proper pest management system and you see so many people who just treat regardless which in theory should raise just as many eyebrows.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Yes ... as you know as well as not treating my bees all my frames are foundationless .. and build their own comb. Is this another factor in success in being TF .. I don't know. So many variables and unknowns ..

I've never seen any downsides to vaping OA .. all the one's I've ever done the bees hardly seem to react and there's never any dead brood or bees thrown out as a result. If OA by sublimation harms the bees surely you would see some evidence of it afterwards ? Trickling in mid winter ... that's a whole different matter ... opening them up in January and pouring OA in syrup over them ... can't think they really like that a lot ?

I have been re-reading Michael Bush’s thoughts on natural comb and treatment free, in his book The Practical Beekeeper. His experience is very persuasive, but I’ve not plucked up the courage to go that route yet, largely because I don’t want to affect other folks bees if I get it wrong, or if there’s a transition to undergo.
His experience with smaller boxes is tempting too, after knurdelling back muscles after heaving full brood boxes about!
I can’t see mid-Winter OA trickling as a positive experience for the bees either.

 

[Arfermo]

Yes, beekeepers will disagree, yet they both can be right, just different approaches.

And so round and round we go as ever. Quite entertaining if one has the patience!!

 

[1amanda1]

I have been re-reading Michael Bush’s thoughts on natural comb and treatment free, in his book The Practical Beekeeper. His experience is very persuasive, but I’ve not plucked up the courage to go that route yet, largely because I don’t want to affect other folks bees if I get it wrong, or if there’s a transition to undergo.
His experience with smaller boxes is tempting too, after knurdelling back muscles after heaving full brood boxes about!
I can’t see mid-Winter OA trickling as a positive experience for the bees either.

He has an excellent website with lots of ideas: The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping Naturally, Bush Bees, by Michael Bush