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m100 

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Plastic excluders work well
...as long as you can cope with an excluder that doesn't have any bee space and even if framed in wood to have a bee space it will still sag because the material lacks stiffness due to cost engineering taking precedence over basic functionality. The only thing that would stop it sagging is a frame with a central support, and that will violate the bee space.

With a little thought the design could have been so much better with a proper shaped rim incorporating a bee space on one side and moulded using a material that wouldn't sag significantly. But by then it might be a few quid more and costing as much as properly engineered excluder.

Its a common trait with quite a few bits of bee kit, they seem to be specified, designed and manufactured (actually that implies a controlled process, make it thrown together) by people that haven't a bloody clue.

Smokers, are often lacking in many areas, hopeless ergonomically making them strange to hold, with bits that regularly gum up, bellows holes you can't block to stop burning, wing nuts surrounded by metalwork so that you can't move them without the aid of a tool, crap spot welding, and sharp edges everywhere.

Extractors too, particularly 2 frame tangential extractors that have wide crossmembers at the top making it a pain in the ass to fit frames with widely drawn combs and the positioning of honey valves that leave considerable residue in the bottom of the tank.

Apideas with the frame feeder that is just ripe for crushing the queen when she hides on the floor when you want to replace the feeder, and also apidea top feeders that can fit on back to front and give robbers direct access to the feeder whilst excluding the occupants of the hive.


But going back to excluders, I have a few plastic excluders, bought blind when they first appeared. I used them for not much more than a couple of weeks. They are better than an unframed slotted excluder, but that's not saying much as those abominations are fit only for the bin. I'd only ever use the plastic excluders again when I've nothing else available, the rest of the time they stop with the clearer boards and spare supers just cluttering the place up.

Wire excluders are just so much better in every respect, preferably Lega (Italian) manufactured ones, the last ones I bought from Thornes weren't, and they were bent like a banana in transit and those that weren't bent had uneven wire spacing.
 

Poly Hive 

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I repeat they work well for me.

As for design it always comes down to cost.

As for beespace actually the flat metal excluders don't have one either... and the bees use them with no issues I am aware of.

The very best were Waldron ones (I think they were called) but I believe they are no longer made.

PH
 

Somerford 

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This year, I think, is the first time foundation has been included in the sale. It might have something to do with other suppliers selling at much lower prices than Thorne - all the year round.

Regards, RAB
Oli - thoughts on this? - after all I always thought you should buy foundation when you needed it as it is best 'served fresh' so the bees accept it.....this way it will be sitting for at least 3 months and it is probably 3 months old already!!

regards

S
 

MuswellMetro 

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...as long as you can cope with an excluder that doesn't have any bee space and even if framed in wood to have a bee space it will still sag because the material lacks stiffness due to cost engineering taking precedence over basic functionality. The only thing that would stop it sagging is a frame with a central support, and that will violate the bee space.
i make up a frame with stripwood screwed either side of the plastic with one cross middle bar on the TOP only, i then then screw the plastic frame to the cross middle bar to stop it sagging, therefore i have bee space under the plastic excluder over the brood frames, but even when i have used it upside down, the only problem appears to be the Bees proplisethe middle support to the brood frames, it does not seem to restrict the bees wheras a plain plastic in a summer heatwave sags a lot and gets proplised and i broke one prying it off the brood frames
 

jezd 

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Their foundation prices whilst lower than normal still are not getting close to the deal I have from my local BKA (YBKA). would love to know who they are sourcing them from.

PS on a general note I never understand why ppl bitch and moan about other companies, how they operate and how they try and make a living (Thornes, Omlet, etc, etc), if you think you have a clever idea or can do it better then get off your backside and do it :) imho.
 
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jezd 

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...as long as you can cope with an excluder that doesn't have any bee space and even if framed in wood to have a bee space it will still sag because the material lacks stiffness due to cost engineering taking precedence over basic functionality. The only thing that would stop it sagging is a frame with a central support, and that will violate the bee space.

With a little thought the design could have been so much better with a proper shaped rim incorporating a bee space on one side and moulded using a material that wouldn't sag significantly. But by then it might be a few quid more and costing as much as properly engineered excluder.

Its a common trait with quite a few bits of bee kit, they seem to be specified, designed and manufactured (actually that implies a controlled process, make it thrown together) by people that haven't a bloody clue.
How easy would it be to add a timber lip to the plastic excluders? I have a few dozen of them but not sure if adding an 8mm strip is possible - can you bond wood and plastic?

Cheers

JEz
 

PaleoPerson 

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I think the previous posts have highlighted some of my concerns, and for me, they are purely a temporary measure and there is a distinct possibility they may not be used as originally intended.

My personal dislike is plastic gets brittle with time, with the edges exposed to the sunlight, this is the exact area you apply a hive tool.

I hope to get involved with swarm collection next year. It is the actual collection and installation of the bees that interests me. So looking at previous posts, the main uses could be UNDER brood box when a swarm is introduced to persuade them to stay until some eggs have been laid. How long that needs to be I am still figuring out, also what if queen is virgin etc. etc. I will experiment and find out what works for me.

Based on experiences of friends who collect swarms, it is a very fickle area and the bees will invariably do the opposite to what you expect.

Still, I expect my views will change dramatically by this time next year.
:cheers2:
 

OXFORDBEE 

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Oli I always thought you should buy foundation when you needed it as it is best 'served fresh' so the bees accept it.....this way it will be sitting for at least 3 months and it is probably 3 months old already!!
S
I've had foundation (sealed in plastic by the manufacturer) that's been around for several years in a cool place. I've had no problems getting the bees to draw it ...
 

OXFORDBEE 

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The very best were Waldron ones (I think they were called) but I believe they are no longer made.
Waldron excluders had the fatal problem of being mounted in a frame so the excluder had 1/2 bee space either side.

Herzog wire framed excluders come to mind. These came out in the 1980's and I don't think they are still made. These excluders were mounted in a frame with a bee space on one side and the excluder itself was made using thicker wires than those of a Waldron.
 

Hivemaker. 

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Thornes sell a wire version of the herzog pattern,framed,which they state is much stronger and rigid........£16.17 ea, total price.
 

jezd 

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Oli - thoughts on this? - after all I always thought you should buy foundation when you needed it as it is best 'served fresh' so the bees accept it.....this way it will be sitting for at least 3 months and it is probably 3 months old already!!

regards

S
I am aware of ppl using 3+ year old wax with no issues at all
 

m100 

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Their foundation prices whilst lower than normal still are not getting close to the deal I have from my local BKA (YBKA). would love to know who they are sourcing them from.
If I told you in public I'd have to killl you. PM me and I'll let you know, you might be surprised :)

PS on a general note I never understand why ppl bitch and moan about other companies, how they operate and how they try and make a living (Thornes, Omlet, etc, etc), if you think you have a clever idea or can do it better then get off your backside and do it :) imho.
Most of my purchases have gone way of Thornes, that doesn't mean they are fault free and all is perfect. Their packaging can sometimes be shambolic, some of their prices are absolutely ridiculous, but overall the quality of the goods and the service offered is ok. But more importantly the levels of customer service when something does go wrong are significantly better than some others I could mention.

As for 'clever ideas and 'doing it better' we choose to criticise because:

a) some of us really hate bad design, not just bee bits, but road junctions, teapots that don't pour, user interfaces on websites, dashboard air vent positioning, lamps on cars that are almost impossible to change without major disassembly, doors that open the wrong way, child proof pill boxes, cash machines fitted at the wrong height, frost free fridges that aren't, cluttered remote controls, multi-layer obscure menus on gadgets, toilet rolls fitted the wrong way, photocopiers with obscure hieroglyphics, dvd piracy menus. The list is really endless and gets longer the older you get.

b) we really appreciate good design, things like a properly weighted, nicely plated spanner that fits perfectly in the hand rather than digging in, screwdrivers that you can cup with the palm of your hand, Felco secateurs, snap together hosepipe fittings, nokia phones with near identical intuitive menu structures to those a decade and half ago, an ipod that you knew how to use almost from the moment you picked it up despite never reading the manual or ever seeing anyone else use one, winches on a yacht with automatic two speed gearing, dualit toasters, indexable gears on pushbikes, and many more, but the list is not as endless as I'd like.

c) good design and engineering often costs about the same as really bad design and engineering, it's just you need to employ brighter more motivated people, bad designs and companies producing them deserve to die. Customers should stop buying badly designed crap.

d) some of us are too busy on other things to get involved with designing and manufacturing bee equipment. That doesn't mean we can't comment on their weaknesses and how they can be improved.

You might be scraping clean a wire excluder in 30 years time, in 30 minutes/weeks/months the plastic one that fails to meet basic design requirements might have driven you nuts.

and as the saying goes, the quality remains when the price is long forgotten


>polyhive Flat metal excluders without framing get propolised to the top bars, peeling them off really upsets the bees.
 

East Yorks New Bee 

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Their foundation prices whilst lower than normal still are not getting close to the deal I have from my local BKA (YBKA). would love to know who they are sourcing them from.
They are good prices jezd, I was surprised when I got this years YBKA price list/order form.They prob get it from someone that we pay loads of dosh to if we buy it privately.
 

jezd 

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They are good prices jezd, I was surprised when I got this years YBKA price list/order form.They prob get it from someone that we pay loads of dosh to if we buy it privately.
So much so that I have double checked that sheet more than a few times to see if I am missing something.

Finally a good reason for being in the BKA :) joke!
 

Hebeegeebee 

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I assume Thornes - or their Mongolian Factory or whatever they have, try to make all first quality (more £££'s) and some is not quite up to the mark so it's sold as second quality. So I guess the seconds run out eventually?
 

ian 

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Hi


Seconds are produced as seconds and not those that don't make the grade.


Regards Ian
 

oliver90owner 

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Ian,

My experience in the past is that some are, some not.

Hive bits rejected from 'first' quality used to be sold as sales seconds. Not so much now as 'first rejects' are likely used in the budget hives. I have had hive parts fluffy from the planer - nothing else wrong that a good sanding could not resolve, some have had dead knots. Most faults are easily fixed/positioned to minimise any longevity worries.

That said, frames are in different quality wood, or so I am led to believe, so will definitely have had a separate run for the sales market.

Hebeegeebee,

And some of the seconds will possibly run out before the sale ends. Have done in the past.

Regards, RAB
 

ian 

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Hi Oliver

I am sure you are correct, if any items don't reach the grade they may well end up on the seconds pile. However the main sale items broods, supers frames and roofs are all produced as second quality items.

And as far as I am concerned they provide good value for money.:cheers2:


Regards Ian
 

jezd 

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fyi Just noticed some items are already dropped from the sale page - ie sold out
 

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