The National Hive. Outdated?

[masterBK]

Nationals suit my style of beekeeping ( & I have kept 20 colonies for over 50 years). I use a double brood system allowing me to check for swarm cells in seconds by splitting and hinging the top box. The only time you really need to check 22 combs is when you find Q cells on the bottom bars of the top box. However with all that room less colonies tend to try to swarm and most colonies replace the queens by supersedure (unlike a few less prolific colonies which I keep in single boxes) . My swarm prevention is based on Demaree system. I tend to only get about 3 or 4 colonies trying to swarm during the year

 

[Swarm]

Yup, nothing wrong with standard National. Double brood gives so much flexibility about the apiary.

 

[Finman]

Yup, nothing wrong with standard National. Double brood gives so much flexibility about the apiary.

I think that this is moder way to keep the National if you want some modern.

It has a good construction and its own place in beekeeping. Full boxes are light compared to Langstroth.

,

 

[moor141]

If it is'nt broke dont fix it.

 

[BBG]

I am a 5' 4" woman and I lift jumbo langstroths BBs and the supers. If I can, most people can. I was thinking that as I get older I will put all the BBs on stands with wheels and consider half supers.

An English Rose and made of stern stuff by the sounds of it!

In days long gone, I, and others, used to lift 1Cwt fertiliser bags (approx 85 1Cwt bags/hr) onto pallets, off the back of lorries etc.

We had many, many gorillas (6 feet+ & 18 stone) macho men start, but nearly all didn't return on day 2.

The work was gruelling for the first 4 weeks and became easier after that.

Without exception, the shorter, slimmer men made it through the first day and stayed many months.

Stamina and the positive mental attitude.

 

[mbc]

But the most popular one to make is obviously the National,as not so many of the others are used...and it would be pointless to make something that does not sell well.

Are a hundred thousand British beekeepers barking up the wrong tree ? or are they using a format which works very well for them ?
I tghink its still very popular for a reason and the only confusing thing is why the smith hive isnt more popular.
Anothernewbee - the Smith is cheaper to make as its only four bits of wood rather than eight.

 

[REDWOOD]

The national is a strong box and well designed however a little complicated to make but my first colony out grew it 3 times in a season so decided last year to move to 14x12 with an easy conversion that cost £2.50 a hive + frames and foundations, I now have 3 colones all different strains of bees and they have no problem filling them. They do store more honey for themselves and less for me but sharing I have no problem with.
Is it time for a new design, Well I am happy with the size of hive but if an easier to make design of hive can be made to take 14 x 12 frames with the same strength, I will give it a go

 

[Tom Bick]

I think that one thing this thread is showing is the flexibility of the National BB and perhaps something most people don’t realise.

 

[stilllearning]

I'm right ...your wrong..."beekeepers" in a nutshell I'm afraid.
all mine are in top bar hives...down south we have trouble with elephants don't you know

 

[For want of a better word]

If it is'nt broke dont fix it.

I will stick with my WBCs thanks !"

 

[VEG]

Works fine for me.

 

[Tom Bick]

I will stick with my WBCs thanks !"

And a beautiful hive to

 

[AnotherNewBee]

Ok, who's got the last working skep?

 

[Baggyone]

Maybe a better name for the 14x12 is a jumbo national? It is not a completely different hive. Just a bigger brood box.

If you make your own hives it's quite simple to make them a bit longer to accommodate 13 or 14 frames rather than 11 or 12. The issue then is supers with castellations. Making the boxes is simple and if you use self spacing frames no problem.

OMF mesh could be the hardest thing to get.

Baggy

 

[Moggs]

I would imagine that the widespread use of the National is perpetuated largely by custom and practice. How many new beekeepers adopt the National purely because this is the hive that they have been shown, have done their training on and who are happy to start out on because of 'standardisation'?

Not many new beekeepers will be warned that the National was perfectly suited to a strain of bee that was quite happy with 8 frames, thank-you-very-much but may be inadequate for highly prolific queens.

It didn't take me long to realise that standard national frames were cramping my bees' style. Doubling up on boxes just didn't seem a practical solution (been there, done that) so last year saw me coaxing my bees onto 14x12; much better for accommodation and wintering.

Yes, a brood chamber of frames is heavy but I'm not unduly bothered by that, in consideration of the advantages. It was a good decision.

In a token gesture towards weight reduction (but the main attraction was the apparent sheer practicality) I'm going to try 14x12 poly's this year. I have them painted and ready to be pressed into service. So far (admittedly without bees in residence) I can't really see huge disadvantages (I know, I can't scorch them but thank goodness for a bit of bleach huh?).

Note that my own choice for an alternative was in fact limited by the 'fait accompli' that I had created for myself, having set out with a shed load of national bits and pieces at day one.

Back to Poly's OP - yes, outdated, for me 'n' my bees at least.

 

[Poly Hive]

Moggs?

Most often the scorching brigade do no good at all....lol

The ministry finally have got it right with the chemical way.

PH

 

[Tom Bick]

I would imagine that the widespread use of the National is perpetuated largely by custom and practice. How many new beekeepers adopt the National purely because this is the hive that they have been shown, have done their training on and who are happy to start out on because of 'standardisation'?

Not many new beekeepers will be warned that the National was perfectly suited to a strain of bee that was quite happy with 8 frames, thank-you-very-much but may be inadequate for highly prolific queens.

It didn't take me long to realise that standard national frames were cramping my bees' style. Doubling up on boxes just didn't seem a practical solution (been there, done that) so last year saw me coaxing my bees onto 14x12; much better for accommodation and wintering.

Yes, a brood chamber of frames is heavy but I'm not unduly bothered by that, in consideration of the advantages. It was a good decision.

In a token gesture towards weight reduction (but the main attraction was the apparent sheer practicality) I'm going to try 14x12 poly's this year. I have them painted and ready to be pressed into service. So far (admittedly without bees in residence) I can't really see huge disadvantages (I know, I can't scorch them but thank goodness for a bit of bleach huh?).

Note that my own choice for an alternative was in fact limited by the 'fait accompli' that I had created for myself, having set out with a shed load of national bits and pieces at day one.

Back to Poly's OP - yes, outdated, for me 'n' my bees at least.

By this statement are we saying that the beekeeper of old only and religiously stuck with a single National BB? I fined this hard to believe.

Is it not the case that it’s the hobby beekeeper (and I am one) has passed on this mith that the single BB is the only way to go when the more experienced and professional
Beefarmer knows that you need to be flexible and adaptable.

The 14x12 from my memory of producing quite a few is a National Hive only deeper and has adapted to serve the beekeeper by beekeepers and for some its all the better for that.

There has been no national campaign its just the case that the National Hive is the most common hive in the country and that is within a community as widespread as this forum and that has to say something and for me, it’s the most adaptable hive for this country and that is why it’s the most popular and you have stuck with it.

 

[Tom Bick]

Moggs?

Most often the scorching brigade do no good at all....lol

The ministry finally have got it right with the chemical way.

PH

Yes perhaps so and about as many fishmongers and flower sellers get it wrong to

 

[Moggs]

By this statement are we saying that the beekeeper of old only and religiously stuck with a single National BB? I fined this hard to believe.

Tom, errmm no, I never said that! However, my own opinion is that faffiing about with multiple brood boxes is counter-productive. That's my opinion. YMMV.

 

[Moggs]

Moggs?

Most often the scorching brigade do no good at all....lol

The ministry finally have got it right with the chemical way.

PH

Indeed - in fact, it was your excellent report in BeeCraft that tipped the balance - thanks.