Syrup “honey”

[Tony Slater]

The honey bee has 3 variants of alpha-glucosidase (invertase) in 3 locations (ventricle, hemolymph, and hypopharyngeal glands). It is the latter, alpha-glucosidase III found in the hypopharyngeal glands, that is naturally transferred to honey. This invertase is not present in nurse bees, so age is a limiting factor in honey production or the ability to process nectar.

Thanks, that’s helpful. So when a bee is taking syrup from the feeder into its honey stomach, it is involuntarily mixing invertase - other enzymes - with it and the sucrose is being broken down into glucose and fructose. Its then stored in comb and dehydrated in the normal way, presumably down to 18% water (or thereabouts).

I think this is all accurate. So, m

 

[JamezF]

I agree with your reasoning. However, if I understand correctly, the way the molecules are positioned/shaped in corn syrup caused differences in the way it is digested. I have heard from other beekeepers that corn syrup can cause gut issues for bees although it is not very significant. I am currently studying organic chemistry so I am going to give this a deeper look.

There is possibly a precedent for this and if you're studying organic chemistry you may be aware of it. For example, to the best of my recollection, the chemical responsible for the smell of both oranges and lemons is limonene. In both instances the chemical is the same -- same atoms, same bondings and so on. But the two fruit smell different. That's because in each case the molecule is the mirror image of the other and our olfactory system responds differently depending on the "handedness" of the molecule. My son (who is doing some research into this for his MSc.) tells me that some drugs work the same way, so it can be that for example the "right-handed" form of a molecule is effective as a treatment whilst the "left-handed" form (which is otherwise chemically identical) does nothing.

I guess it's possible that something along the same lines is at work in the case of corn syrup?

James

 

[Dr. Abe]

There is possibly a precedent for this and if you're studying organic chemistry you may be aware of it. For example, to the best of my recollection, the chemical responsible for the smell of both oranges and lemons is limonene. In both instances the chemical is the same -- same atoms, same bondings and so on. But the two fruit smell different. That's because in each case the molecule is the mirror image of the other and our olfactory system responds differently depending on the "handedness" of the molecule. My son (who is doing some research into this for his MSc.) tells me that some drugs work the same way, so it can be that for example the "right-handed" form of a molecule is effective as a treatment whilst the "left-handed" form (which is otherwise chemically identical) does nothing.

I guess it's possible that something along the same lines is at work in the case of corn syrup?

I did not know that differing enantiomers (Left hand and Right hand) cause the differences in the smell of oranges vs. the smell of lemons. I absolutely understand that concept and was actually learning more about it in Organic Chem class today. And yes, that is a very important concept in the drug industry. Sometimes one sided enantiomer may fight a ailment while the other side actually fights a person's cells. This must be known before drugs are produced and used.

Regarding sugars, I am not sure that this is what causes the differences between corn syrup and sugar water. However, the way in which the carbon is bonded in glucose chains makes a big difference. Glucose polymer chains are normally called starch. If the carbon is bonded in a specifically different way, then those chains of "glucose" molecules are actually cellulose such as cotton or wood fiber. The mirror images could possibly be a factor but I believe there are other differences that are more important.

I do know that sugar contains mostly sucrose. Sucrose is a molecule that is simply a combination of glucose and fructose. Because of that, is is called a disaccharide and is not as quickly absorbed into life systems in comparison to glucose and fructose (monosaccharides). Nectar is a combination of glucose, fructose, and sucrose. A difference that I see between sugar and regular corn syrup is that while sugar contains fructose and glucose, corn syrup is just pure glucose. However, high fructose corn syrup has both glucose and fructose. I really would need to better understand honey bee metabolism of sugar to know whether there is any serious differences in the way they use corn syrup vs sugar water.

The following link offers some very interesting information regarding what nectar really is. Sweet solutions: nectar chemistry and quality

 

[fian]

I have read the article and only at the end does it offer a key that we beekeepers should take into account. "When a bee arrives at the hive, the concentration of sugars is usually double that of the original nectar."
Thus, we must understand the two basic processes that modify this value:
A. The energy expenditure of the flight that reduces the concentration of sugars.
B. Bees expose the nectar to the air through regurgitation in order to reduce its water content, since for the same capacity of the honey stomach, concentration is a key factor to compensate for the expense of collection.

 

[fian]

The solubility of glucose, fructose and sucrose in water at 25°C is 910, 4000 and 540 gr/L. It is also useful to remember that the hydrolysis of sucrose releases energy and that a sucrose solution held between 50-60°C is 85% dissociated.
On the other hand, for humans, the processing of glucose and fructose is not the same and therefore, although the chemical formulation is the same, the internal balance is different. I don't know if it is the same in bees.

 

[Tony Slater]

Thanks, that’s helpful. So when a bee is taking syrup from the feeder into its honey stomach, it is involuntarily mixing invertase - other enzymes - with it and the sucrose is being broken down into glucose and fructose. Its then stored in comb and dehydrated in the normal way, presumably down to 18% water (or thereabouts).

I think this is all accurate. But my original question hasn’t been answered Given that all honey has a distinct honey flavour, and sources of nectar are diverse adding flavour notes, what is it that gives honey bits distinct flavour. Is it the nectar or the bees. If the latter, why can’t that distinct flavour be imparted to syrup honey.

By the way, I really don’t want to sell syrup honey. I’m currently selling my 2024 crop of genuine honey at the front door abd it’s going very wel at £7.50 for 340g.

I agree with your reasoning. However, if I understand correctly, the way the molecules are positioned/shaped in corn syrup caused differences in the way it is digested. I have heard from other beekeepers that corn syrup can cause gut issues for bees although it is not very significant. I am currently studying organic chemistry so I am going to give this a deeper look.

I’d be interested to know more too. I think HFCS is roughly 50/50 fructose/glucose, the same as sucrose after it’s been inverted, and honey. I have not seen any reference to the molecules being a different shape. I think HFCS has a bad rap compared to beet or cane sugar because it is so cheap and is added freely to drinks and processed food. Its importation to the EU and U.K. is restricted, not for health reasons, but to protect European sugar manufacturers. All sugar, HFCS, treacle, honey should be eaten in moderation. They all affect insulin resistance and triglyceride levels.

 

[Penninetrader]

I have read all the replies and opinions. Seems to me it leaves as many questions as answers. There are so many possible variables as to make the mind spin. I guess the only Beeks that could describe with confidence their honey as pure would be those who either never feed or only feed honey. Syrup v fondant, the fondant could be effective as a dehunidefier of sorts in that it requires the addition of h2o, that has to come from somewhere, whereas syrup adds. As for which is most efficient, then as we know the bees make that decision dependant on Temp and hunidity. The problem with this journey being that the more we learn it only confirms we know little. I had no idea when poking my head into that first hive box that I would need a degree in chenistry

 

[Penninetrader]

The solubility of glucose, fructose and sucrose in water at 25°C is 910, 4000 and 540 gr/L. It is also useful to remember that the hydrolysis of sucrose releases energy and that a sucrose solution held between 50-60°C is 85% dissociated.
On the other hand, for humans, the processing of glucose and fructose is not the same and therefore, although the chemical formulation is the same, the internal balance is different. I don't know if it is the same in bees.

My word that was a mouthful, we have some clever lads on here.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My word that was a mouthful, we have some clever lads on here.

yes, I can never get the hang of getting a decent result from a google search then copying and pasting it.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

corn syrup isn't even real sugar!
Shouldn't be anywhere near bees - or humans come to that

Farina (potato starch) based glucose anyone?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I did not know that differing enantiomers (Left hand and Right hand) cause the differences in the smell of oranges vs. the smell of lemons. I absolutely understand that concept and was actually learning more about it in Organic Chem class today. And yes, that is a very important concept in the drug industry. Sometimes one sided enantiomer may fight a ailment while the other side actually fights a person's cells. This must be known before drugs are produced and used.

Regarding sugars, I am not sure that this is what causes the differences between corn syrup and sugar water. However, the way in which the carbon is bonded in glucose chains makes a big difference. Glucose polymer chains are normally called starch. If the carbon is bonded in a specifically different way, then those chains of "glucose" molecules are actually cellulose such as cotton or wood fiber. The mirror images could possibly be a factor but I believe there are other differences that are more important.

I do know that sugar contains mostly sucrose. Sucrose is a molecule that is simply a combination of glucose and fructose. Because of that, is is called a disaccharide and is not as quickly absorbed into life systems in comparison to glucose and fructose (monosaccharides). Nectar is a combination of glucose, fructose, and sucrose. A difference that I see between sugar and regular corn syrup is that while sugar contains fructose and glucose, corn syrup is just pure glucose. However, high fructose corn syrup has both glucose and fructose. I really would need to better understand honey bee metabolism of sugar to know whether there is any serious differences in the way they use corn syrup vs sugar water.

The following link offers some very interesting information regarding what nectar really is. Sweet solutions: nectar chemistry and quality

During part of my career I was works engineer of a glucose refinery. I recall we took Dutch potato starch, added water to form a slurry and further added hydrochloric acid then heated under pressure to convert the starch into glucose. The raw thin syrup was neutralized, filtered and evaporated to form a thick clear low Dextrose Equivalent syrup and sold to confectioners. The raw syrup could also be treated with enzymes to produce higher DE sugars. It's a long time ago but if memory serves the clear syrup was 42DE and we turned out 63DE and 90DE also. The chemist called one of the high DE products Malto-triose I think but it's a lot of years since and memory may not be accurate.

 

[Wilco]

I have read the article and only at the end does it offer a key that we beekeepers should take into account. "When a bee arrives at the hive, the concentration of sugars is usually double that of the original nectar."
Thus, we must understand the two basic processes that modify this value:
A. The energy expenditure of the flight that reduces the concentration of sugars.
B. Bees expose the nectar to the air through regurgitation in order to reduce its water content, since for the same capacity of the honey stomach, concentration is a key factor to compensate for the expense of collection.

B- More likely that bees are absorbing some of the water from the nectar for physiological demands. Exposure to air for dehydration is once it's in the comb.

 

[drex]

Not necessarily. Once in the hive, the handling bees blow bubbles with the nectar, increasing surface area, before putting it in the comb for further evaporation

 

[Rory Fields]

I’ve been feeding my bees 2:1 sugar-to-water syrup. They’ve taken down a lot. I was inspecting a couple of hives today and was reminded that there is little difference if any in in appearance between processed and stored nectar, ie “honey”, and processed and stored syrup ie “sugar hobey”. What is the difference? By the time the syrup is stored the sucrose in the sugar has been broken down (I assume) into fructose and glucose by the action of invertase, as with nectar. The bees will evaporate the water from the syrup to get it to the right concentration, as they do with nectar. And the syrup would contain hydrogen peroxide from the action of glucose oxidase. All that’s missing from the “sugar honey“ are the minute quantities of polyphenols from the source plants of the nectar (although sugar beet are themselves rich in polyphenols). Perhaps a blueberry in each jar of “sugar honey” would make up for the lack of polyphenols.

Has anybody tried eating “sugar honey” from their own hives. Is it any good? (By they I know it is illegal to describe sugar honey as “honey”.)

When my cousin started keeping bees he thought it was impossible to overfeeding them; the cut-comb he kindly gave me tasted only like syrup, despite being capped, it was honestly horrid and flavourlessly sweet. As for small amounts, I daresay it's impossible to ever be 100% sure capped stores have no trace of syrup or fondant unless you only ever leave bees honey and don't feed

 

[Rory Fields]

I disagree with some of that comment, Dani.

I am usually militant about not feeding at any other point than autumn. In fact, I'm paranoid about getting syrup in my supers... So much so that when I did do a small amount of stimulative feeding to two colonies away from my production hives this year (in order to use these solely for queen rearing), I used food dye to colour the syrup.

One of these colonies processed and stored said syrup ... leaving me with two supers of blue 'honey' - one of which I extracted (in order to be able to feed it back in autumn).

Of course, I tried it. Yes, it was a little bland, and it was very sweet, but it did taste of honey.

A couple of months ago I recall reading an article in Beecraft written by Willie Robson, where he was explaining the role of in-season feeding, and accepting, it seems, that a good proportion of the extracted crop would contain processed syrup (which I found to be a surprising admission).

I also recall reading about one international honey show (was it something to do with Apimonda?) where a high proportion of exhibits (presumably submitted by genuine, earnest beekeepers) were found to contain refined sugars.

.... By which, I think I'm trying to make the argument that stored syrups can pass the taste test ... to at least some degree.

I recall the same article about doctored honey. I think Willie was just saying if you're a beefarmer, it's impossible to ever be sure there's no syrup or fondant at all in your honey - he's got 2000 or something hives and lots of apiaries spread over Northumberland and the Lammermuirs at heather, and so can't realistically be as assiduous about it as us backyard beekeepers. He's a great raconteur, has some interesting ideas about drone fertility issues and beer mats laced with OA solution to tackle mites in his Smith hives.