Syrup “honey”

[Erichalfbee]

But nectar contains a lot of sucrose, as well as fructose and glucose. That’s why bees need to secrete invertase, in order to invert the sucrose, which presumably they would do whether the sucrose is in nectar or syrup.

Yes you’re right
Not thinking straight.

Hang on. Bees invert any sucrose they forage, yes?
Do they invert sucrose fed as heavy syrup and stored immediately?

 

[Penninetrader]

If that were true, the Chinese would have discovered how to turn lead into gold.

But nectar contains a lot of sucrose, as well as fructose and glucose. That’s why bees need to secrete invertase, in order to invert the sucrose, which presumably they would do whether the sucrose is in nectar or syrup.

Your knowledge of this chemistry is noted, you are clearly a valuable resource. Good contribution

 

[Tony Slater]

Hang on. Bees invert any sucrose they forage, yes?
Do they invert sucrose fed as heavy syrup and stored immediately?

I don’t see why not. The bees use invertase to invert sucrose. Can they turn this off - why would they want to when processing syrup. We produce invertase in our saliva all the time.

Hang on. Bees invert any sucrose they forage, yes?
Do they invert sucrose fed as heavy syrup and stored immediately?

I don’t see why not. The bees use invertase to invert sucrose. Can they turn this off - why would they want to- when processing syrup. They have to invert sucrose before they can digest it (just like in humans. We secrete invertase too to break down sucrose). They then dehydrate it and store it, just like real honey. I think they process syrup in exactly the same way as nectar. Do the bees know the difference?

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I think they process syrup in exactly the same way as nectar.

I imagine this is so but I'd like to know for sure. I read somewhere that bees take fondant down to store it and you can see the white clumps of it in the cells. I'm pretty sure that's wrong and that the writer was actually seeing was crystalised ivy honey. I'm under the impression that they process everything they store though there's very little dehydration to be done with fondant or invert (or ivy nectar).

But I'd like to hear what others say.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I read somewhere that bees take fondant down to store it and you can see the white clumps of it in the cells. I'm pretty sure that's wrong and that the writer was actually seeing was crystalised ivy honey

Yes, seen that myth announced a few times over the years - usually by the non thinker amongst us, what they are usually seeing is either mouldy pollen or, as you say crystalised honey.
But why are we getting our knickers in a twist over this or have we got some dishonest beekeepers out there looking for an excuse to sell sugar syrup as 'honey' and not get caught?

 

[drex]

In order to transport food it must be liquid to go into the crop. Hence any fondant will be dissolved to take it down into hive. That is logical according to my knowledge of bee physiology. Whether it later crystallises out like some honeys is a guess.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Byt why are we getting our knickers in a twist over this or have he got some dishonest beekeepers out there looking for an excuse to sell sugar syrup as 'honey' ?

No knicker twisting going on. When half the entrants at Apimondia a few years ago had their entries rejected, I'm sure they were more surprised than anyone. I think the explanation can only have been that syrup feed had got into honey, probably by being moved up from brood boxes. The numbers of rejected entries were far fewer at the following Apimondia. Maybe the honey producers had coloured their syrup to prevent the same outcome.

All total conjecture of course but I'd like to hear any other explanation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe the honey producers had coloured their syrup to prevent the same outcome.

or maybe they knew they'd been caught out and didn't exhibit hooky honey as in the past

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think the explanation can only have been that syrup feed had got into honey

which seems to rubbish the claim that sugar inverted by the bees is identical to honey

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

which seems to rubbish the claim that sugar inverted by the bees is identical to honey

Fake honey has been bulked out with syrup and it tastes like syrup mostly. Syrup that has been 'through' the bees tastes more like real honey - which is why we need to be careful and remove frames of feed from brood boxes in spring before the bees start to move it up into honey supers. That's quite tricky because you might do this in the early days of supering when starvation is a possibility. (Feeling my way here.)

 

[Dr. Abe]

I read an article from some time back by an American bee farmer making the case that the 'honey' his bees made from the high fructose corn syrup he fed them should be considered 'real' because he was merely providing a substitute for nectar. The bees processed it just the same and made real honey, he said. (Of course the almost universal definition for honey now precludes that claim.)

I believe that was a mixed up American! Being from the USA myself, I have never met with a beekeeper who holds that belief. My close neighbor is commercial and think they would consider corn syrup to be stored corn syrup and not marketable as real honey.

I feed an mixture of oils and supplements mixed in with my sugar syrup. Therefore, my "sugar honey" tastes different and I have even noticed the comb looking slightly yellower.

All in fun, but I am an American!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

they would consider corn syrup to be stored corn syrup

corn syrup isn't even real sugar!
Shouldn't be anywhere near bees - or humans come to that

 

[Dr. Abe]

corn syrup isn't even real sugar!
Shouldn't be anywhere near bees - or humans come to that

Understood! I use sugar syrup for bees and I use sugar, maple syrup, and honey as consumed sweeteners.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I imagine this is so but I'd like to know for sure. I read somewhere that bees take fondant down to store it and you can see the white clumps of it in the cells. I'm pretty sure that's wrong and that the writer was actually seeing was crystalised ivy honey. I'm under the impression that they process everything they store though there's very little dehydration to be done with fondant or invert (or ivy nectar).

But I'd like to hear what others say.

I had exactly the same conversation with a beekeeper today. He was worried that if he fed fondant he might end up with combs full of white stuff. I explained that to store the fondant they would have to process it and the only thing they can process it into is a “honey like” substance that looks like honey.
Obviously to do this they have to add water as fondant is probably only 5% water whereas feeding syrup or inverterbee they have to drive off about 20% water. What do you think is most energy efficient for the bees?

 

[Tony Slater]

corn syrup isn't even real sugar!
Shouldn't be anywhere near bees - or humans come to that

Corn syrup is mostly glucose isn’t it, and that is a sugar. Unless it is further processed to convert some of the glucose to fructose and then you get high fructose corn syrup corn. It’s still sugar though. Invertbee, which is a premium cost syrup made for beekeepers, is made from sucrose extracted from sugar beet and then factory processed so that the sucrose is inverted to glucose and fructose. All the same sugars at the end of the day.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Stores get mixed up as they come into the hive & get moved around. Sugar syrup can get mixed with honey either stored or foraged that’s why yours tasted of honey. If there’s no mixing then it won’t taste of honey.

I’ve extracted early summer honey and there was ivy pollen/honey in it, we thought it was eucalyptus but nope.
Just goes to show that if there is even a small amount of syrup left in the bb there is always a chance it’s going to get moved to the supers.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I had exactly the same conversation with a beekeeper today. He was worried that if he fed fondant he might end up with combs full of white stuff. I explained that to store the fondant they would have to process it and the only thing they can process it into is a “honey like” substance that looks like honey.
Obviously to do this they have to add water as fondant is probably only 5% water whereas feeding syrup or inverterbee they have to drive off about 20% water. What do you think is most energy efficient for the bees?

I remember Marin Anastasov talking about feeding sugar. He said invert is 72.7% sugar and fondant has highest ratio of sugar to water (90%) – except for dry sugar. So If the bees aim for 15-20% water, I guess they have to reduce invert by about 10% and increase the water in fondant by about the same amount. I've never thought about which is more energy efficient.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I don’t see why not. The bees use invertase to invert sucrose. Can they turn this off - why would they want to when processing syrup. We produce invertase in our saliva all the time.


I don’t see why not. The bees use invertase to invert sucrose. Can they turn this off - why would they want to- when processing syrup. They have to invert sucrose before they can digest it (just like in humans. We secrete invertase too to break down sucrose). They then dehydrate it and store it, just like real honey. I think they process syrup in exactly the same way as nectar. Do the bees know the difference?

I recall reading a book (by Oliver Lyle I think). One phrase sticks in my mind. The Almighty created man with the ability to produce invertase, therefore he must have intended man to consume sucrose.

 

[Dr. Abe]

Corn syrup is mostly glucose isn’t it, and that is a sugar. Unless it is further processed to convert some of the glucose to fructose and then you get high fructose corn syrup corn. It’s still sugar though. Invertbee, which is a premium cost syrup made for beekeepers, is made from sucrose extracted from sugar beet and then factory processed so that the sucrose is inverted to glucose and fructose. All the same sugars at the end of the day.

I agree with your reasoning. However, if I understand correctly, the way the molecules are positioned/shaped in corn syrup caused differences in the way it is digested. I have heard from other beekeepers that corn syrup can cause gut issues for bees although it is not very significant. I am currently studying organic chemistry so I am going to give this a deeper look.

 

[fian]

The honey bee has 3 variants of alpha-glucosidase (invertase) in 3 locations (ventricle, hemolymph, and hypopharyngeal glands). It is the latter, alpha-glucosidase III found in the hypopharyngeal glands, that is naturally transferred to honey. This invertase is not present in nurse bees, so age is a limiting factor in honey production or the ability to process nectar.