Swarm Ownership law.

[gingerbees]

good manners ?

lets forget the law here, doesn't it all come down to good manners ? we have another bee keeper with hives in the field next to our allotment, last year I saw his hive swarming and gave him a call. I didn't keep quiet and try and catch them

However, i have a bait hive in our allotment and if i found a swarm in it, I wouldnt call him. If I found a swarm in our allotment, it might have come from his hives, and it might not and I would probably keep it.

If a swarm is clearly from someone elses hives and they were trying to catch it then I would leave them too it, seems a bit unfair to cliam finders keepers in that instance, regradless of the letter of the law.

Just my thoughts

 

[susbees]

Little choice did I have as you well know, given the absolutely dreadful commotion that had been achieved in timing this collection at the worst possible time in the absence of knowledge of local comings and goings. Had I collected the swarm just a little later, there would not have been that crowd to deal with.

Joseph - I must say it's amazing you have your escaped bees so well trained that you were certain the scouts wouldn't have picked a final destination to head for at that time and ALL hit the air at once. And presumably local comings and goings go on all the time.

In general I don't suggest clipping BUT I live in a totally rural area with woodland. I cannot imagine keeping 12 hives in an urban set-up and, in some parts of the world, that number is simply illegal under municipal laws.

However, if I had been collecting this swarm I would have handed it over.

 

[Joseph]

Joseph - I must say it's amazing you have your escaped bees so well trained that you were certain the scouts wouldn't have picked a final destination to head for at that time and ALL hit the air at once. And presumably local comings and goings go on all the time.

Of course they could have flown off, but it was unlikely so late in the day and that was a risk I was willing to take in the interest of not creating a huge commotion.

In general I don't suggest clipping BUT I live in a totally rural area with woodland.

As I have said I do clip, and this is why this was a prime swarm headed by a virgin queen. I had left 2 QC's, usually they don't swarm with 2 QC's occasionally they do. But yeah I now only leave one. Queenless bees cause less hassle than do a swarm of bees in London.

I cannot imagine keeping 12 hives in an urban set-up and, in some parts of the world, that number is simply illegal under municipal laws.

Whatever gave you impression that I kept twelve hives at that site? I do NOT keep 12 beehives at one single site in an urban setting. That would be absolutely insane. I have 6 hives in London only one currently on my dads roof.

However, if I had been collecting this swarm I would have handed it over.

Yep, it seems most people would have.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As I have said I do clip, and this is why this was a prime swarm headed by a virgin queen. I had left 2 QC's, usually they don't swarm with 2 QC's occasionally they do. But yeah I now only leave one. Queenless bees cause less hassle than do a swarm of bees in London.

Sometimes they will still swarm if you only leave one queen cell,leaving the remainder completely Q- .. especially when in swarming mode and after losing a clipped queen.

 

[Black Comb]

Thanks.
Didn't know that.

 

[Joseph]

Sometimes they will still swarm if you only leave one queen cell,leaving the remainder completely Q- .. especially when in swarming mode and after losing a clipped queen.

Yes thanks, neither did I. How often does that happen I wonder?

 

[Beeforest]

lets forget the law here, doesn't it all come down to good manners ? we have another bee keeper with hives in the field next to our allotment, last year I saw his hive swarming and gave him a call. I didn't keep quiet and try and catch them

However, i have a bait hive in our allotment and if i found a swarm in it, I wouldnt call him. If I found a swarm in our allotment, it might have come from his hives, and it might not and I would probably keep it.

If a swarm is clearly from someone elses hives and they were trying to catch it then I would leave them too it, seems a bit unfair to cliam finders keepers in that instance, regradless of the letter of the law.

Just my thoughts

 

[keith pierce]

Of course they could have flown off, but it was unlikely so late in the day and that was a risk I was willing to take in the interest of not creating a huge commotion. QUOTE]

Bit of a dog in the manger attitude..

I dont know what you mean by creating a huge commotion.
I have taken swarms from a crowed platform of a train station. Outside the front entrance of a shopping centre, in the grounds of a church. If anything, people are facinated by the whole process.

 

[The Cumbrian]

If anything, people are facinated by the whole process.[/QUOTE]

Which in my opinion does not make the action any more acceptable.

 

[BBG]

lets forget the law here, doesn't it all come down to good manners ? we have another bee keeper with hives in the field next to our allotment, last year I saw his hive swarming and gave him a call. I didn't keep quiet and try and catch them

However, i have a bait hive in our allotment and if i found a swarm in it, I wouldnt call him. If I found a swarm in our allotment, it might have come from his hives, and it might not and I would probably keep it.

If a swarm is clearly from someone elses hives and they were trying to catch it then I would leave them too it, seems a bit unfair to cliam finders keepers in that instance, regradless of the letter of the law.

Just my thoughts

At the Association we belonged to they stole my Queen cells between Thursday inspection and Sunday - and that required collusion from 2 or more very sad people.

There's more, and it gets worse but it's tedious to relate.

 

[Black Comb]

I assume belonged is the past tense.

 

[BBG]

I assume belonged is the past tense.

Most definitely!

A year later, I understand there have been some irregularities surrounding their charity accounts, which have been sorted out now - of course.

 

[thorn]

I've managed to get hold of the report in the case of Kearry v Pattinson, and in the hope that I can clarify the law regarding swarms and bring this thread to a close, here it is summarised. It'll be a long summary of a longer judgement, so make a coffee and sit yourself down before reading on.

The case went to the Court of Appeal, and so, BeeJoyful, it's doubtful that there'll be any more recent reported cases. A decision of the Court of Appeal binds all lower courts, and will be followed unless and until Parliament changes the law or a beekeeper with very deep pockets goes to the Supreme Court with a swarm problem. Over to you Joseph and Eric. Your names could live in the lawbooks for centuries.

Interestingly, one of the Appeal Court Judges hearing the case was Lord Goddard, later the Lord Chief Justice and best known now for his misdirection in the case of Bentley and Craig, which lead to Bentley being hanged.

K and P were next door neighbours, and were not on good terms. K's bees swarmed into P's garden. K asked if he could go in and collect them and P replied "No, you only speak to me when you want something". By the time P relented the bees had moved on (don't you just hate it when they do that?).

K sued for the loss of the swarm and on the loss of profit on the honey. He lost in the County Court and so appealed. As the claim was valued at £4 I wondered what sort of a person would pursue the matter so doggedly. My wife guessed immediately - a Yorkshireman. And indeed, the original hearing was in the Hull County Court.

K's barrister went back a considerable way in presenting his arguments. He quoted from Blackstone's Commentaries (ed 1776), who in turn quoted Bracton, a 13th century jurist, who himself went back to Justinian. He cited cases from 1613, 1661, and many from the 19th century. Blackstone said that bees are ferae naturae, but when hived and reclaimed a man may have a qualified property in them, "but a swarm, which flie from and out of the hive are mine so long as I can keep them in sight, and have the power to pursue them".

The Appeal Judges felt the case to be interesting and important. They accepted K's barrister's (and Bracton's) line of argument on the ownership of a swarm, but didn't even call on P's barrister to speak before dismissing the claim. They held that the power to pursue them was lost once the bees went onto another man's land, as that would be an act of trespass. A landowner has no duty to allow another on to his land to collect a swarm, and if he wants he can keep them for himself.

So there you go, Joseph and Eric. It all comes down to who gives the most convincing evidence if you decide to take it to court. And Joseph, it's for the claimant to prove his case, so the onus is on you.

And one final extract from the transcript: "It has been held that to say of a man that he stole my bees was actionable as being a slander".

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Glad I just skipped to the end of this! Thanks Thorn

 

[BeeJayBee]

Thanks for taking the time to look it up and explain.

As the claim was valued at £4

It doesn't seem much, but this site http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/result.php says :-

In 2010, the relative worth of £4 0s 0d from 1939 (the date of the case) is:

£193.00 using the retail price index

£198.00 using the GDP deflator

£553.00 using the average earnings

£761.00 using the per capita GDP

£986.00 using the share of GDP ​

 

[Joseph]

Thank you Thorn, this is actually quite fascinating. The law seems to take a common sense approach here, and it is possible that Eric does in fact have a case to answer given that the bees were followed and we were not in any way prevented from collecting them on public property, meaning that in the eyes of the law they may in fact still have been our bees.

"A swarm, which flie from and out of the hive are mine so long as I can keep them in sight, and have the power to pursue them". cannot not mean that ones eyes must be trained on the bees all the time in a "hey, you sneezed and looked away, not yours anymore..." sort of way..

Thank you again.

 

[RoofTops]

...and in the hope that I can clarify the law regarding swarms and bring this thread to a close...

Well I hope so but the incident this Thread is about is not quite the same as the case cited - as the bees did not go onto private land - which was the reason the appeal was lost. However,...

"but a swarm, which flie from and out of the hive are mine so long as I can keep them in sight, and have the power to pursue them".

This is where any case would fall down. The swarm was on public land so right of access was not an issue but the owner of the swarm lost sight of it and therefore it became free to anyone with the skills to capture it.

As for the rights and wrongs - the swarm by all accounts was a potential nuisance if not an actual nuisance so the person who took it away was doing everyone living locally, with one exception perhaps, a favour.

Moral of the story is if you lose a swarm go after it and capture it at once. Nipping back inside the house to make a cup of tea or whatever could mean you lose it.

 

[Poly Hive]

The part about trespass is also in the book I scanned from.

PH

 

[BBG]

At centre of Hereford, there used to be a small Tourist Information/gift shop with a small museum upstairs.

What stuck with me for the last 30 years was a 10" X 10" relief carving from the 18th C depicting:

A cow with a farmer at one end pulling the horns in one direction and another farmer pulling the tail in the opposite direction.

Both looked very angry.

At the cow's udder was a bewigged gentleman with a happy smile sat on a three legged stool as he milked the cow into a bucket at his feet.

A very true reminder to behave fairly and sort it out amicably and stay away from legal beagles.

 

[susbees]

Moral of the story is if you lose a swarm go after it and capture it at once. Nipping back inside the house to make a cup of tea or whatever could mean you lose it.

Seems pretty sensible