Soda crystals

[JamezF]

If it gets caught by social media, between the pair of you, you could have caused an international rush on purchases of washing soda .... and a subsequent world shortage !

Reminds me of the time I bought a couple of trolleys full of loo roll. There was a run on that, too.

James

 

[JamezF]

Well Proper Job see - clue's in the name my dear - West Country........... There is a beer called Proper Job too and it's OK

Indeed there is. From the brewery in Snozzle. I have a recipe for a homebrew "clone" called "Improper Job"

James

 

[plain_hunt]

The Taunton one? If so they're probably going to be wondering what on Earth has caused this sudden rush on washing soda

James

No, had to visit 5 to find some. Burnham, Highbridge and Weston. Taunton was on my list for Monday, when I’m there. did you leave any?

 

[plain_hunt]

If it gets caught by social media, between the pair of you, you could have caused an international rush on purchases of washing soda .... and a subsequent world shortage !

I did have them wondering why I wanted more than one bag….!
probably have caused a run on it in that area. There wasn’t much there - and even less when I’d left

 

[JamezF]

No, had to visit 5 to find some. Burnham, Highbridge and Weston. Taunton was on my list for Monday, when I’m there. did you leave any?

Oh yes. We didn't take them all.

I suspect that if they get new stock it will be at a higher price and then I really might be into buying 25kg sacks next time around.

James

 

[Niv]

Looks like I better get down to proper job. I love that shop, its fantastic. The one I use isn't mentioned so will share it when I have bought mine!

 

[pargyle]

Looks like I better get down to proper job. I love that shop, its fantastic. The one I use isn't mentioned so will share it when I have bought mine!

Probably too late, I hear that they are opening a new Soda mine in Knotty Ash to cope with the increased international demand ! And WE know who is to blame ....

 

[blackcloud]

It is alleged Knotty Ash was the tax evasion haven before the Cayman Islands.
What a lovely day....

 

[madasafish]

£1.44/kg Sainsbury's Nectar offers.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Spotted this which is quite a saving.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Carbonate-...um+carbonate&qid=1679593911&sr=8-3&th=1&psc=1

Ok, so not having a Proper Job shop locally I decided to buy in bulk!
Now my problem is how to store it as we all know it goes like a rock.
I’m considering storing as a strong solution which is 1 to 1 but the stronger I can store it the less containers needed!
Anyone know what sort of concentration I could store it at before the crystals come out of the solution?

 

[Wilco]

Ok, so not having a Proper Job shop locally I decided to buy in bulk!
Now my problem is how to store it as we all know it goes like a rock.
I’m considering storing as a strong solution which is 1 to 1 but the stronger I can store it the less containers needed!
Anyone know what sort of concentration I could store it at before the crystals come out of the solution?

I'd thought it was related to absorbing moisture, in which case could you vacuum seal it in smaller amounts?

This site seems to think there's a heat component to it.

 

[JamezF]

This site seems to think there's a heat component to it.

I wonder if that's because the heat drives off some of the moisture (because there's usually quite a bit of water tied up in sodium carbonate crystals sold as washing soda)?

The answer to the question is not entirely simple because in part it depends on the temperature of the solution, but I found this page that gives the solubility for sodium carbonate decahydrate (which is what washing soda is, at least as far as I'm aware). I doubt the solubility is linear with temperature but they don't give enough of a range of temperatures to attempt a graph. I'd guess if the solution were kept in a house where one might not expect temperature to drop below about 15°C then maybe 150g to 160g per litre of water is the highest you're likely to be able to go. So if you have 25kg you're going to need a fair bit of storage We buy cleaning products such as washing up liquid and detergent for the washing machine in 20 litre containers and I was contemplating using them for a "bulk store", but I reckon eight would be required for 25kg of crystals.

Vacuum sealing does sound like it might be an easier, err, solution If it still goes solid just do as it says in the article about heat: cut the bag open, dump it in the correct volume of water and wait for it to dissolve.

James

 

[pargyle]

When I've had some go hard in the past I find that putting it in a plastic bag and beating it with a mallet restores in to a well crushed state that dissolves as it should.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I wonder if that's because the heat drives off some of the moisture (because there's usually quite a bit of water tied up in sodium carbonate crystals sold as washing soda)?

The answer to the question is not entirely simple because in part it depends on the temperature of the solution, but I found this page that gives the solubility for sodium carbonate decahydrate (which is what washing soda is, at least as far as I'm aware). I doubt the solubility is linear with temperature but they don't give enough of a range of temperatures to attempt a graph. I'd guess if the solution were kept in a house where one might not expect temperature to drop below about 15°C then maybe 150g to 160g per litre of water is the highest you're likely to be able to go. So if you have 25kg you're going to need a fair bit of storage We buy cleaning products such as washing up liquid and detergent for the washing machine in 20 litre containers and I was contemplating using them for a "bulk store", but I reckon eight would be required for 25kg of crystals.

Vacuum sealing does sound like it might be an easier, err, solution If it still goes solid just do as it says in the article about heat: cut the bag open, dump it in the correct volume of water and wait for it to dissolve.

James

The standard “strong mix” from the Dry Pack instructions is 200g to 500ml of water so that would bulk up to 87.5kg of liquid.
I was wondering if it’s possible to store at , say, 1kg/1litre then dilute further for use? Would this solution separate?

 

[JamezF]

I was wondering if it’s possible to store at , say, 1kg/1litre then dilute further for use? Would this solution separate?

Based on the information on that web page I suspect it wouldn't all dissolve, or would precipitate out as the solution cooled.

James

 

[JamezF]

Because I couldn't remember the recommended concentration for making up washing soda solution, I checked what the NBU say. On their website they have a leaflet on "Apiary and Hive Hygiene" that says 1kg of washing soda to 5 litres of water. They also have a video on their Facebook page that says 400g to 2 litres of water, so at least they're consistent.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Because I couldn't remember the recommended concentration for making up washing soda solution, I checked what the NBU say. On their website they have a leaflet on "Apiary and Hive Hygiene" that says 1kg of washing soda to 5 litres of water. They also have a video on their Facebook page that says 400g to 2 litres of water, so at least they're consistent.

James

I just chuck about a third of a packet into a 30'b honey bucket (which only gets filled up to about two thirds)

 

[JamezF]

I just chuck about a third of a packet into a 30'b honey bucket (which only gets filled up to about two thirds)

I'd guesstimate that's the equivalent of 1kg to 18 litres, but if it does the job that's what counts.

James

 

[Newbeeneil]

I wonder if that's because the heat drives off some of the moisture (because there's usually quite a bit of water tied up in sodium carbonate crystals sold as washing soda)?

The answer to the question is not entirely simple because in part it depends on the temperature of the solution, but I found this page that gives the solubility for sodium carbonate decahydrate (which is what washing soda is, at least as far as I'm aware).

Yes, the washing soda sold to the public is sodium carbonate decahydrate. (I assume the 10 molecules of water are added to make it safer to handle.)
The 25kg bag of Sodium Carbonate I have is a fine dry power which is likely to get into the air when decanted so I will certainly be wearing goggles and particle mask when mixing.
I assume that it is stronger than washing soda as that is partially mixed with water already?

 

[JamezF]

I assume that it is stronger than washing soda as that is partially mixed with water already?

Assuming it's not the decahydrate form then I guess it will have fewer water molecules bound into the crystals, yes. The page I linked to earlier gives the solubility of a couple of other forms that might help you work out what proportions of water and sodium carbonate you can use. Ultimately though (and we're getting to the limits of my understanding of chemistry now), I'd assume you'll end up with a solution that precipitates out at the same concentration whichever form you use initially because in solution it will form ions and release the water molecules. When it does precipitate out I'd think it will be in the decahydrate form regardless of what you started with.

James