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[Swarm]

Yeah.....I looked at the poly stuff....but is that environmentally friendly?

There are so many drawbacks with poly, the market is muddled with many designs and most are incompatible with anything else due to dimensions or design flaws. Abelo seem to have sorted out a poly hive that at least can be used with any wooden kit but has its own problems.
Note, these comments are about National kit. If you were to go Langstroth, you have the burden of obtaining bees on an unpopular frame size and you will be restricted in your choice of supplier or face another faff of converting frames while you get them established.
I started with cedar nationals, tried various poly options and I've replaced the lot with cedar. Colonies in cedar did equally well.
Double brood standard national deeps are so flexible as the cavity can be reduced to whatever size your colony requires with some packer dummy boards and these can be removed for extra space if/when required. It certainly doesn't mean you have twice the number of frames to inspect, anyone lifting off top boxes and lifting every frame needs to ask himself why? It's not necessary.
I've over Wintered in double format for years, usually eight or nine frames per box, the bees love the set up.
I'd take advantage of the Maisemore sale ( I have ) and go for cedar nationals ( if I've left any )

 

[ericbeaumont]

Using wood / wrc boxes with out BHS polly hives... no problem

Wood and Abelo have identical National 460 x 460 footprint. External box size deviation from that (BHS poly, Paynes poly) may allow water ingress (and though not critical, may disappoint a beginner expecting to see a uniform stack).

Swienty is a dog's dinner: though it has a 460 x 460 footprint it was designed as TBS, converted to BBS yet retained the TBS wide base rim which becomes propolised to top bars below; wide rim is also an easy way to squash bees. Box also has an excessive lug recess dimension which allow frames to slide and contact walls, leading to more propolisation.

Simplicity, compatibility and uniformity of operation make the beginner's life easier.

 

[Swarm]

Wood and Abelo have identical National 460 x 460 footprint. External box size deviation from that (BHS poly, Paynes poly) may allow water ingress (and though not critical, may disappoint a beginner expecting to see a uniform stack).

Swienty is a dog's dinner: though it has a 460 x 460 footprint it was designed as TBS, converted to BBS yet retained the TBS wide base rim which becomes propolised to top bars below; wide rim is also an easy way to squash bees. Box also has an excessive lug recess dimension which allow frames to slide and contact walls, leading to more propolisation.

Simplicity, compatibility and uniformity of operation make the beginner's life easier.

Not to mention, it was 'improved' with beveled edges which leaves just 5mm in contact with anything above. They also made the walls a lot thinner when they changed the panel design. Must say I was surprised that Abelo seem to have done similar.

 

[Nick Lang]

If you are inclined to go for nationals, and don't know if you want double deeps or 14 x 12s, you could start with deeps. If you then decide to go 14 x 12, there are ekes available/you could make ekes, to convert BS deep to 14 x 12....

That makes sense

 

[Nick Lang]

Thank you so much for all your replies...they all make a lot of sense!!!
It's a minefield of information out there and you have helped me with some of my preconceived notions

 

[Nick Lang]

Also....am I correct in assuming I can mix any broods and supers from different manufacturers as they are supposed to be a fixed size??...such as mixing Thornes and Maisemore etc??

 

[ericbeaumont]

Must say I was surprised that Abelo seem to have done similar.

Not sure about this, Steve. Stated (at one time) on the Abelo website that the changes to the new box were external. Website info. has been edited since then, but I can't see any physical internal changes to the boxes.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Also....am I correct in assuming I can mix any broods and supers from different manufacturers as they are supposed to be a fixed size??...such as mixing Thornes and Maisemore etc??

If you are talking cedar nationals then yes, they are all the same size

 

[Curly green finger's]

Buy the best you can. I like BBWear (slightly cheaper than Sherriff but as good imo.)
I had a cheap suit when I began and it was very soon replaced by a user-friendly one. I think it's still lurking somewhere at the back of the shed, must sort that out.

S B s Pro suit is good and comes with a spare vail, if I remember, it was only 50 or 60 pounds.

 

[Apple]

Also....am I correct in assuming I can mix any broods and supers from different manufacturers as they are supposed to be a fixed size??...such as mixing Thornes and Maisemore etc??

Cedar Nationals brood/ supers and ( avoid) 14 x 12, should be the same footprint, as are the OSB ~ Rose method boxes... and all accept the same sized frames...

Must be said if I was starting over I would go for polly Langstroth, probably Honey Paw.. which is exactly what the beekeeper who sold me his Rose hives did when he moved to France 5 years ago!

Best advice I would give a beginner hivewise is...Don't go near Flow Hives!!

Chons da

 

[ericbeaumont]

mix any broods and supers from different manufacturers as they are supposed to be a fixed size?

Yes, Nick, BS Standards are still followed by wooden hive makers in that they produce a box with a 460 square footprint that takes 11 frames.

Poly makers (BHS, Paynes, Maisemore, Abelo, Swienty) use BS variably and we would have been better off if they'd worked together and come up with a universal design, trialled it for a few seasons and ironed out the design flaws before launching. As Steve said, it's a muddle of options, which the unfortunate beginner is expected to comprehend.

Abelo and Swienty have a 460 footprint; the Abelo takes 11 Hoffman frames, the Swienty 10. Swienty have technical drawbacks mentioned earlier.

BHS, Paynes and Maisemore have variable external footprints and wall thickness in order to retain the internal National dimensions and 11 frames.

Abelo managed to retain the external BS dimension and 11 frames, hitting the compatibility jackpot.

If you mix wood you'll be fine; if you mix poly and poly the external footprints will give a ragged stack and water may sit on ledges and leak in. As well as that, a 10 or 11-frame box will not allow the frames to line up from top to bottom in a stack. This is not a big deal, but will slow hive traffic.

If you mix wood and poly, I believe firmly that the Abelo is the best of the lot as it copies the wood BS spec. in all essential dimensions, holds 11 frames, arrives assembled and painted with a quality paint (and a good green at last!).

Do not discount the value of the last two factors: other polys and flat-pack wood must be assembled (wood hives accurately) and the poly painted to protect against UV to give that 30+ year longevity.

 

[pargyle]

Also....am I correct in assuming I can mix any broods and supers from different manufacturers as they are supposed to be a fixed size??...such as mixing Thornes and Maisemore etc??

I have all Paynes Polys ... I like them .. I made the decision after a year with my long deep hive which had 14 x 12 frames and 14 x 12 seemed the right size for me. I just stick with Paynes kit .. I don't mix wood and poly or try to mix and match with other poly suppliers. You can spend a lot of money saving money by buying in the sales from beekeeping equipment suppliers but if you don't know what you are looking for you could easily end up with kit that is incompatible. Best to find a box type and size and stick to that - most suppliers have regular sales and as long as you are prepared to spend when their sales are on you can pick up kit at discount prices from your chosen supplier. Yes - shop around for other beekeeping supplies and frames but when it comes to hives .. choose one supplier and stick to them.

I like poly hives .. bees do seem to like the added insulation they provide and they work for me but - as has been said so many time in this thread ... it's a personal choice ... but if you can - try before you buy.

 

[ericbeaumont]

S B s Pro suit is good and comes with a spare vail, if I remember, it was only 50 or 60 pounds.

The value of BBWear and Sheriff is that they're UK companies that have been in business for thirty-forty years, and repairs or problems are easy to resolve.

Most of the cheaper suits are made abroad - often Pakistan - and repairs must be made ad hoc, or the whole thing replaced. To their credit SBK have a 2-year guarantee on that suit and it does have YKK zips, but has that veil collapsed already on the model's face?

 

[Nick Lang]

4" roof or deeper 8" roof???

 

[The Poot]

Her expression says she isn‘t too confident...

 

[North End Bees]

4" roof or deeper 8" roof???

8" roofs are annoyingly heavy. (I actually have 6" roofs!)

 

[North End Bees]

but has that veil collapsed already on the model's face?

Looks like she's pushed it back so the cameraman gets a better shot of her face!

 

[Erichalfbee]

8" roofs are annoyingly heavy. (I actually have 6" roofs!)

Or better still use Abelo’s deep roofs

 

[madasafish]

I will comment on cheap bee jackets (not suits.. I have never worn or needed one).

I bought one in cotton in 2010 from Cornwall Honey Bee Supplies (or something like that).
Despite being male, I can sew so I have mended it (mainly cuffs, re-elasticated it and had new veil on the hood (it's a fencing type..). It is in camo.

Initial cost: £35. New veil £35. Plus cotton and odd bits of elastic.

Still going strong.

I modded it to have velcro closing on pockets.. Veil never touches face.

So if you do not want to spend too much money initially, you can start cheap and then buy dear later.. IF you are careful..(Visit Beetradex next March and try them on in flesh before buying is my advice - Covid allowing)

(But I am a mean Scot)

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Because it's going to build up pretty fast and catch out a novice keeper. Same applies to the early nucs 'headed by...'
Regardless of my views on foreign queens, they are usually those prolific types and not the best choice for someone with little or no experience of how quickly a colony can expand.
Working with a local beekeeper, difficult with covid I admit but doable, the novice gets some hands on at the 'exciting' time and takes a nucleus of bees into Winter, with guidance and is better prepared and ready for the next season.
I lost count of the number of prime swarms around this season and mostly with marked, ginger queens.

My first bees were an overwintered nuc of Buckfast type with a very prolific queen. Within weeks I had to recover my first swarm. Bloody good experience but I'm always up for personal challenges whereas some people don't react in the same way.