Price of honey bees :(

[B+.]

Location, good husbandry and queens have far more to do with high crops than being locally adapted, which frankly unless you are in the far north is nonsense.
My Buckfast have produced double the blacks brought in this year and are now in a far better state going into winter. The blacks will be requeened early next year, tried them for 3 years and not worth the hassle
S

I'm not sure what this phrase "locally adapted" is supposed to mean. In my area, all the local bees (those that come from swarms and which the majority of beekeepers have) are mongrels. In addition to being aggressive, they produce little, swarm at the drop of a hat, and are usually susceptible to chalkbrood, etc. You just have to look at the figures quoted by the BBKA as the average yield to confirm this.
Any form of selected breeding must contain an element of controlled mating or the queens will mate with random drones and no progress can be made.
If "locally adapted" were to mean what the words say, it should mean those colonies which perform better than average in that area (e.g. https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3832). However, the words seem to be being used as some sort of "code" or "weasel words" by those who have their own agenda.

 

[For want of a better word]

Location, good husbandry and queens have far more to do with high crops than being locally adapted, which frankly unless you are in the far north is nonsense.
My Buckfast have produced double the blacks brought in this year and are now in a far better state going into winter. The blacks will be requeened early next year, tried them for 3 years and not worth the hassle
S

***Yet I find the total opposite..... and there is little moor than Bodmin betwixt our locations
Possibly there is something programmed into the Bf's genes that makes them good for fields of rape or whatever.... but hopeless at multifloral and hedgerow foraging??

However I do actively select for the best of the Cornish native queens for my own bee improvement programme.

Importing the so called Buckfast hybrids and keeping alongside dark Natives is no way forward and can only lead to misery.


Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

However I do actively select for the best of the Cornish native queens for my own bee improvement programme.

Importing the so called Buckfast hybrids and keeping alongside dark Natives is no way forward and can only lead to misery.

Selection alone will not help you unless you control the mating process too. As I have said many times, land-based mating stations simply don't work. You have to use isolated island mating stations (far off the coast beyond the range of drones) or instrumental insemination.
It is your own responsibility to ensure the purity of your stock. You can't shift the blame onto others who are simply doing the best they can with what they have available. Beekeepers migrate their colonies too. You never know what bees are just across the field from yours in this country as a beekeeper can put hives wherever he has permission from the landowner to do so. The reality is you must take ownership of the problem yourself. If you want pure stock, start with pure stock and control their mating.

 

[beebopper]

Possibly there is something programmed into the Bf's genes that makes them good for fields of rape or whatever.... but hopeless at multifloral and hedgerow foraging??

Well my conditions are exactly like that and they do fine - well actually very good. Such a bizarre idea to try and suggest.

 

[B+.]

Possibly there is something programmed into the Bf's genes that makes them good for fields of rape or whatever.... but hopeless at multifloral and hedgerow foraging??

It's not for me to defend the Buckfast bee, but, I never found anything of the sort when I had Buckfasts.
I have seen bees flying over OSR to get to hedgerows beyond that clearly offered a better return for their effort. Now, I am not suggesting for a moment that this is normal behaviour, but, it can happen if the conditions are right.
You do your credibility no good by making outlandish claims like this Icanhopit

 

[Finman]

While this may be true under extremely dense concentrations, I have never seen it in practice. Even with the high concentration that has been reported in this country I still get 6 box hives (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3832).
A selected queen will always prove her worth. As ITLD said: a selected queen doesn't cost. She pays!

You are totally wrong . You have one example. I have those every year.
.
Of course I must have selected queens. Do we need to debate about that.

 

[B+.]

You are totally wrong . You have one example. I have those every year.
.

Actually, I have many examples...every year. I simply chose to illustrate my point with a photo I had to hand in my photo album.
These are also the product of that queens own work too. They are not given help from other colonies.

 

[Beefriendly]

***Yet I find the total opposite...

How can you find the opposite? You don't keep Buckfast bees.

 

[Finman]

You do your credibility no good by making outlandish claims like this Icanhopit

Oh dear. I cannot spoil British beekeeping. Not much to spoil.

And you believe to your breeding like a goat to its big horns.

You do not understand much about pasture analysis.

When bees fly over rape fields to hedgerows, they loose half of their yield.

I know that.

 

[Finman]

Actually, I have many examples...every year. I simply chose to illustrate my point with a photo I had to hand in my photo album.
These are also the product of that queens own work too. They are not given help from other colonies.

You do not understand much beekeeping.
You have your own rules and I gave my own.

My best hive this summer was a bought Buckfast, and it brought almost 200 kg. I moved it two times. From each pasture it took 100 kg.

What us wrong in giving help from other colonies?

I made Buckfast nucs at the beginning of May, and each those nucs brought 100 kg.

I had only 5 queens.

Then I fed big colonies with soya yeast patty and warmed with terrarium heaters.

This is my way.

But all this need good pastures. 10 hectares rape/hive and natural pastures some square kilometres.

 

[B+.]

And you believe to your breeding like a goat to its big horns.

You do not understand much about pasture analysis.
.

Think it through Finman. If I am getting similar yields to your own (which, apparently, are well above the British average if the BBKA are to be believed), does this not tell you I am doing something right?

 

[Finman]

), does this not tell you I am doing something right?

You must know it yourself. You are so stubborn that no one can teach you. It is a sign of a good beekeeper.



.

 

[Finman]

.
I have researched the pasture analysis myself. No one has taught it to me or given advices.

Australia has made researches, how to optimize honey yield. Britain and USA researches, how far bees can fly.

Guys are broud when they put maximum amount of hives in one place. Ridiculous over grazing. Even 10 fold.


Only what guys say to me is, that I drive car too much, and I really do...

 

[pargyle]

Post# 109

Oh dear. I cannot spoil British beekeeping. Not much to spoil.

Well why don't you go somewhere else and spoil theirs then ? Rude and arrogant should be your strapline ...


And you believe to your breeding like a goat to its big horns.

What does that mean ? Lost in translation somewhere !

You do not understand much about pasture analysis.

I'm sure we do .... patronising G..t ! Most British beekeepers don't have the opportunity to move their bees around to different 'pastures' we are not generally migratory beekeepers like you - BUT we look at what is available and the seasonality of forage in our areas.

When bees fly over rape fields to hedgerows, they loose half of their yield.

I know that.

Perhaps the bees know that a diet of nicotinoid infested rape is not good for them or perhaps the variety forage found in hedgerows is what bees would naturally forage on ... and they prefer a varied diet ? I live in an area where there are gardens, allotments, farms, railway bankings all within flying distance of my bees - I don't see a lot of rape around me these days. The honey my bees produce (attested to by Honey judges) is what they describe as a 'lovely floral honey'. The customers I have for the honey also confirm that it's nothing like most of the stuff you can buy in the shops. I'm certain that many, if not most, of us hobby beekeepers are grateful that our bees DO fly over fields of rape. I may not get 150kg a hive but there's a benefit to quality over quantity !

 

[B+.]

You do not understand much beekeeping.
You have your own rules and I gave my own.

My best hive this summer was a bought Buckfast, and it brought almost 200 kg. I moved it two times. From each pasture it took 100 kg.

What us wrong in giving help from other colonies?

I made Buckfast nucs at the beginning of May, and each those nucs brought 100 kg.

I had only 5 queens.

Then I fed big colonies with soya yeast patty and warmed with terrarium heaters.

This is my way.

But all this need good pastures. 10 hectares rape/hive and natural pastures some square kilometres.

200 Kg is a little over 440 lbs. As we have discussed before, supplementing a hive with emerging brood from support colonies is not a fair test of the queens own capabilities. I have no doubt that high yields can be achieved this way (although I doubt 400 lbs is credible) but it is not comparable or repeatable.

 

[B+.]

You must know it yourself. You are so stubborn that no one can teach you. It is a sign of a good beekeeper.
.

Try to stay calm Finman. You're not making much sense. Would you have us believe that the environment solely determines the yield? I think not.
A good beekeeper would be well advised to learn from the best and apply that knowledge in his own area. However, a beekeeping system is only part of the answer. You need a reliable phenotype too. My work is based on sound scientific principles and using the best stock there is. Our practices are completely different because our aims are different.

 

[Finman]

200 Kg is a little over 440 lbs. As we have discussed before, supplementing a hive with emerging brood from support colonies is not a fair test of the queens own capabilities. I have no doubt that high yields can be achieved this way (although I doubt 400 lbs is credible) but it is not comparable or repeatable.

I understood 50 years ago the meaning of good queens.

This hive did not get any support. I do not test queens, because I do not breed them.

I was normal production hive.

I have repeated this system since 1990, when I noticed that good yield comes from good pastures.

I help only weak colonies with emerging brood frames, and as you can imagine, I take brood frames from strong hives. When the colony has one box of bees, I do not support any more, because it is off from best hives.

From where you have got the idea, that I get strong hives via joining? You insist it so much that you cannot read my explanation

Good layers make strong hives. One queen produces 6-8 boxes bees for main yield. That needs 2 boxes brood. Yeah, we really have good breeders and good queens to be sold in Finland. Can you imagine. 90% of bees are Italians.
.

 

[Finman]

Perhaps the bees know that a diet of nicotinoid infested rape is not good for them or perhaps the variety forage found in hedgerows is what bees would naturally forage on ... and they prefer a varied diet ? I live in an area where there are gardens, allotments, farms, railway bankings all within flying distance of my bees - I don't see a lot of rape around me these days. The honey my bees produce (attested to by Honey judges) is what they describe as a 'lovely floral honey'. The customers I have for the honey also confirm that it's nothing like most of the stuff you can buy in the shops. I'm certain that many, if not most, of us hobby beekeepers are grateful that our bees DO fly over fields of rape. I may not get 150kg a hive but there's a benefit to quality over quantity !

That writing makes fantasy history.

.

 

[colinc]

It is all a useless comparison. Finland has its short flowering season where everything flowers at the same time nectar is abundant and the plants are locally adapted to this because if they don't flower in that ideal time it's winter and they don't get pollinated. So you have a much shorter, but during that time much more prolific season as long as you have the bees to work the flow. You do this by boosting and feeding and supporting and do this well by all your own accounts. We have a completely different system in the UK, we can get halfway through the year and the flow stops and the bees eat all their spring crop but now in late September for 3 days my bees are bringing in nectar and pollen like crazy.
Arguing with B+ doesn't help as he is not after yields alone, he is part of th improvement system to breed the bees others buy in. If he followed your system, Finman, he would know nothing about the breeding lines. You are a scientific researcher of 50 years experience, you know this.


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[mbc]

Selection alone will not help you unless you control the mating process too. As I have said many times, land-based mating stations simply don't work. You have to use isolated island mating stations (far off the coast beyond the range of drones) or instrumental insemination.
It is your own responsibility to ensure the purity of your stock.

This sort of nonsense would have me fail you straight away.
No bees are pure yet you have an obsession with purity and make rediculous statements like "land based mating stations simply don't work"?!!
That's the majority of bees bred by man discounted then!
The whole point of selectively breeding local bees is to move the background population in a desired direction in a sustainable way working in tune with the drones in an area.
Of course this is a long and difficult path, it's much easier to buy in queens from an established program and waffle on about how wonderful the bees "you've" bred are. When you're efforts inevitably come to an end all you've left is genetic pollution which will soon fade.
Efforts with bees already in a locality have a much better chance of long term improvements sustainably continued by each generation of beekeepers as they pass on the baton.