polystyrene hives not recommended for overwintering

[Hivemaker.]

And what insulation? Brother Adam

Cork.

 

[user 6228]

Canadian bee keeping association misinterperets research

Look at this winteringpaper. http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/winteringpdf.pdf
This is based on good research by Southwick...fig 2
Bees clusters do indeed have a metabolic minima at 5C...

however if you digout the paper by Southwick you will find this was done in open sided hive in a climate controlled box.

It merely reflects what bees would do in a totally uninsulated environment. It shows that the bees have a coping mechanism for an almost non-existant nest.(for a chilly night out waiting for scouts to make their minds up over which tree?)

It says nothing about the metabolic behaviour or efficiency of bees in nest with any insulating properties.
the winteringpaper says "A hive’s metabolic rate is lowest when temperatures are 5-10ºC"

This statement only applies in the most unusual, unnatural circumstances, very unnatural compared to the bees natural highly insulating habitat. It is very unlikely to be the most efficient solution across all possible nests

Thus the winteringpaper builds its argument from the wrong premise of best efficiency is at 5c in a thermally transparent hive, and therefore do everything to keep the clusters at 5c, which includes measures that remove heat retention.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Hives with solid floors out preformed mesh floors.

This is exactly the same as i find down here.

 

[sail819]

Poly hives with a mesh floor is ideal, winter losses minimal. Zero issues with condensation.

Same here, no problems last year or year before. I like Poly' hives and will continue to use them.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I beileve he was trying to recreate a north american system I suspect inadequate sealing or even venting

Well sealed and no top venting used with the hives on Dartmoor.

 

[user 6228]

Well sealed and no top venting used with the hives on Dartmoor.

Can you tell me your source of information on B.A. method

 

[Hivemaker.]

Can you tell me your source of information on B.A. method

Yes, i knew Brother Adam and Peter Donovan and i now run the Dartmoor mating station and have the old original hives there, plus insulation used.

 

[user 6228]

Yes, i knew Brother Adam and Peter Donovan and i now run the Dartmoor mating station and have the old original hives there, plus insulation used.

some pictures please can you also describe the insulation material
did you observe the actual experiments

 

[Hivemaker.]

can you also describe the insulation material

Full size slabs of cork, as i mentioned earlier.

 

[user 6228]

Full size slabs of cork, as i mentioned earlier.

how thick?
and how where they joined together and placed on the hive? were the slabs of cork waterproofed?

Sorry to pester you for details but they are crucial to understanding the experiment. A small detail can lose most of the benefit of insulation

 

[Thymallus]

A small detail can lose most of the benefit of insulation

Derek, you probably already know the answer to this, but what rigorous experiments have been done to show any benefits of properly insulated hives to the bees themselves? I can't find any serious studies done with bees, just anecdotal stories by devotees of both poly and wooden hives.

 

[Hivemaker.]

how thick?
and how where they joined together and placed on the hive? were the slabs of cork waterproofed?

Sorry to pester you for details but they are crucial to understanding the experiment. A small detail can lose most of the benefit of insulation

They are the full size for the top of the box, no joins in the cork, 75 to 50mm thick, crown board, cork slab, full size feeder, gabled roof, the hives are solid twin walled, about 75mm gap between two walls.

Before my time, so only know through talking about it that he trialed open mesh floors in the 30's and did not like them, and he did not always use the cork insulation every winter.


Whether or not he used the cork insulation during this winter, i don't know.

Anatolians seem superior to all other races as far as wintering goes, and in the cold winter of 1962/63 the coldest in the south west of England since 1750, he wintered nuclei of pure central Anatolian bees, up in the middle of Dartmoor, in nucs with only four combs with complete success,a feat which seemed scarcely possible.

 

[user 6228]

They are the full size for the top of the box, no joins in the cork, 75 to 50mm thick, crown board, cork slab, full size feeder, gabled roof, the hives are solid twin walled, about 75mm gap between two walls.

Before my time, so only know through talking about it that he trialed open mesh floors in the 30's and did not like them, and he did not always use the cork insulation every winter.


Whether or not he used the cork insulation during this winter, i don't know.

Thanks, I get questions at talks about B.A. conclusions about insulation so this is quite important to me. It appears from what you say he may have used more than one type i.e. one the quoted experiments and another on dartmoor, I will have to read the book that being quoted and understand as much as I can. I wish he had measured the conductance of the hives as the devil is in the detail with heat flow.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

BA did trial open mesh floors, decades before they were in common use, he did not like them at all.

Out of interest only; I recall seeing a hive purchased pre WW1, it had an omf. This was an original feature and not retrofitted.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Out of interest only; I recall seeing a hive purchased pre WW1, it had an omf. This was an original feature and not retrofitted.

There you go, nothing is new, many think they were invented when varroa arrived here.

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder how heck they can kill hives during winter in Turkey, when winter is 3 months long.

But I have flied to Malaysea in March over mountains areas of Turkey, and most were covered with snow. Villages were in green valleys.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

.
I wonder how heck they can kill hives during winter in turkey, when winter is 3 months long.

But i have flied to malaysea in march over mountains areas of turkey, and most were covered with snow. Villages were in green valleys.

? !​

 

[BeeJayBee]

? !​

x too many?

Probably?

 

[user 6228]

Derek, you probably already know the answer to this, but what rigorous experiments have been done to show any benefits of properly insulated hives to the bees themselves? I can't find any serious studies done with bees, just anecdotal stories by devotees of both poly and wooden hives.

All of the studies i have found are flawed its a case of finding the least flawed.
Villumstad E. (1974) Importance if hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9:277-281.
is good in that he at least measured the conductance of the hives and it was significantly reduced, not enough repetitions though. The rest like the one above

A Dodologlu, C Dulger and F Genc 2004 Colony condition and bee behaviour in honey bees (Apis mellifera) housed in wooden or polystyrene hives and fed 'bee cake' or syrup Journal of Apicultural Research Volume 43 (1 )

have major issues like holes in the boxes and unknown conductance, unknown colony mass. e.g.

• Olszewski K Winter-hardiness of Buckfast bees under specific weather conditions of areas with alternating influences of maritime and continental climate. J. Apic. Sci. 2007, 1, 27-36. -
• Villa D.J. (2009) Overwintering of Russian honey bees in North Eastern Iowa. Science of bee culture 1(2):19-21.
• Owens C. (1971) The thermology of wintering honey bee colonies. U.S. Agricultural Research Service Technical bulletin 1429
• ABD ELMAWGOOD (2015) EFFECT OF THE INTERNAL SIZE AND THERMAL INSULATION OF THE HIVE ON BEE COLONIES STRENGTH AND PRODUCTIVITY Egypt. J. Agric. Res., 93(1), 2015

.

some studies look quite suspicious when looked at with modern eyes e.g.

Anderson E.J. (1948) Hive Humidity and Its Effect Upon Wintering of Bees. J Econ Entomol 41(4):608-616 doi:10.1093/jee/41.4.608.

 

[Thymallus]

All of the studies i have found are flawed its a case of finding the least flawed.

Cheers Derek, very much appreciated.
Thanks.