polystyrene hives not recommended for overwintering

[Finman]

Is there such a thing as too much insulation? We just don't know.

I know it very well.
- Insulation is expencive. It needs lots more material and it has its cost. Now the langstroth box has 1.0 kg plastic.

- That extra wall thicknes, what derekm speaks, it is not needed. Tell me where it is needed,

- It makes nursing more difficult if the box is 10-15 cm longer and 10-15 cm wider:
And floor is leaking heat however.

- Nowadays old wooden boxes can be used easily as supers. I have solid wooden boxes, which have 9 frames. They are 48 years old and in good condition.

- The size of boxes have not been found its size by accident. If it were wrong size, it would be changed 20 years ago.

- What is the problem that recent polyboxes . Why they are not good?

- Italian bees over winter in -40C weather in Finland, what do you British beeks want it to be? Your winter temp goes hardly under zero.

What is the problem? Where you need that extra insulation.

It saves winter food; stop feeding the hives in winter with expencive honey and with semiexpencive special sugars. Bees' stomack splits the sucrose to fructose and glucose. You need not to pay for that many fold sugar coast.



You should better to research need of mesh floor in your climate and the need of extra empty box under wintering box.


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[Finman]

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Renewing the insulation of polyhive

1987, when I bought the first polyboxes, they were Swedish Nacka hives. The walls had a window, where the wall thicknes is 20 mm. Stronger parts of walls are 37 mm.

It was not long time ago, when Finnish manufacturers filled the window, and wall thicknes is now 40 mm.

So, the polyhive has now 100% thicker wall than 15 years ago. I do not remember when the production of thick wall begun.

I have mesured with infrared heat pistol the surface temperatures in all three hive types, 40 mm, 20 mm and 30 mm solid wooden hives. Heat leaking can be seen clearly with the pistol.

But however, bees over winter well in Nacka hives and there are food stores enough after winter.

Our winter food lasts from September to May. It is 9 months.
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In the picture you see, how WALLS are thinner in Nacka hives than in Paradise Honey hive.

 

[Finman]

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National Poly Hive, manufactured by Swienty of Denmark.

You see the windows of the walls. But surely the boxes have enough insulation in British climate.

Actually wall is good looking.

Paynes model has same thinner window in walls

 

[Finman]

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Home made poly hive

This has been used at least 50 years.

 

[Finman]

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Compare to USA style

Keeping bees in the Denver metropolitan area calls for 70 to 90 pounds of honey and pollen per colony to get through winter. In this case, we are defining ...

4 boxes!!!!

Canada style Insulating wrapping

 

[Finman]

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Polyhives in India

 

[user 6228]

The question was not whether wood was better (I think we all agree that it isn't) but how much insulation is necessary.
The insulation that I saw in Dereks presentation was about 4" thich but I'm not sure how dense it was. My concern is what effect placing that much extra insulation on a polyhive would have. Is there such a thing as too much insulation? We just don't know.

We know how much conductance they have in tree nests. It is less than 0.5W per degree C. Poly hives sealed at the top with their standard floor are at best around 1W per degree C . Wood hives sealed at the top are around 2.5 W per degree C . These numbers are all in the paper . Polystyrene hives make in Finland Denmark and uk are measured for heat loss and compared. I make my own hives to be at 0.5W per degree C. They are not expensive, the material is about the same cost as plywood.

 

[Itchy]

So Derek, that would mean that the most efficient poly hive is actually a kingspan bonnet over a wood hive?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

So Derek, that would mean that the most efficient poly hive is actually a kingspan bonnet over a wood hive?

Thats what I have

 

[Finman]

. I make my own hives to be at 0.5W per degree C. They are not expensive, the material is about the same cost as plywood.

Black small ants will destroy such kingspan hives in 2 months. They move in next day when I bring my hives to the forest pastures.
My oldest Nacka hives are now from year 1987. It is 28 y old.

To do own polyhives is wasting money and work.
Density demand of polyhives is not said fo fun. It is real problem, if it is not hard enough.

You may boil or sterilize poly hives in hot lye water, but to kingspan hives you cannot do that. Water goes into board.
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[Finman]

So Derek, that would mean that the most efficient poly hive is actually a kingspan bonnet over a wood hive?

Efficient polyhive? There is no such. Over words. Compared to tree trunk.

Look at your ideas. When you discus about polyhives of different companies, you inspect every little detail and compare them. In home made construction it is impossible to do all those features.

 

[Into the lions den]

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Into, do you know, if poly colony nurse brood later, and it consumes pollen stores in autumn. Then wooden hive has more pollen after Winter and it can start brood rearing earlier. That is the way how Carniolan goes compared to Italian bees.

Our hives start small brood rearing in February even if out temps are -20C. But in practice, brood rearing starts in first of May when willow starts blooming.

Maybe in some situations.

However, we are stripping honey and feeding bees in autumn and see little or no difference in the amount of pollen they have. Pollen dearths are very rare here, and willow pollen is plentiful from considerably earlier than with you.

We feed the amount of syrup needed in autumn, and have no problem with them over consuming it due to brood rearing.

 

[Into the lions den]

ITLD What is your method of dealing with varroa in each type. Does it differ?

No difference. Last few seasons simply an oxalic acid trickle in the two weeks before Christmas.

Stock of strips on hand for spring use if some colonies exhibited significant varroa levels.

That was it until this season, when we used Biowar for the first time, imported under Cascade system. Again, all hive types treated alike.

 

[Finman]

Maybe in some situations.

However, we are stripping honey and feeding bees in autumn and see little or no difference in the amount of pollen they have. Pollen dearths are very rare here, and willow pollen is plentiful from considerably earlier than with you.

We feed the amount of syrup needed in autumn, and have no problem with them over consuming it due to brood rearing.

Brood rearing is possible only with pollen. I still wonder, why wooden hives starts brood rearing earlier than polyhive.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I still wonder, why wooden hives starts brood rearing earlier than polyhive.

Here they often have a small amount of brood all through the winter, and pollen is also available for them to collect all year round, whenever the weather conditions permit.

Most usual time without brood here is late August through into September.

 

[irishguy]

Brother Adam done his own experiments, with and without insulation, colonies without insulation were the quickest to build up in spring.

Just because brother Adam says this, doesn't mean its true. Here's a pic from one of my hives that was opened up earlier than what should have. Manylocal bee keepers says that this build up was very good so early in the season and also take into consideration that these weren't full colonies going into winter last year. Yes brother Adam knew a thing or 2 about bees but he was probably using that aul sh1tty areo board or other useless insulation compared to this new stuff on the market.




Edit.. Near sure I opened these up in march and after reading your op again I just have to scratch my head and think are you on the same planet. How in the name of good **** would a hive with no insulation be better building up in spring than one with. Think about that one for a sec. So basicly your saying a hive with no insulation is better! Impossible IMO because that was mean that insulation has a negative effect somehow. Some of you people are nuts IMO lol

 

[Finman]

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When I started to use poly boxes, I first want to see, are they any good. They were very expencive 30 years ago. They were imported from Sweden.

When I looked my 18 hive yard, I was amazed when I must add first new boxes on hives. Hives brought so much more honey, that I could pay two brood boxes with first year extra honey. Poly hives swarmed among first too.

Very simple to see, how they affect.

Insulated supers are better, because they are warmer and honey does not crystallize so fast as in colder boxes.

 

[Thymallus]

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Insulated supers are better, because they are warmer and honey does not crystallize so fast as in colder boxes.

A big plus point in the UK for anyone with hives close to OSR fields in the spring. Particularly if it is a cool one, like this year's was.

 

[user 6228]

A big plus point in the UK for anyone with hives close to OSR fields in the spring. Particularly if it is a cool one, like this year's was.

Ripening of honey takes a lot of energy. Best not to throw it away through the hive walls. even in hot summer there is only a few hours in a heatwave when the outside temperature get close to 34C. The rest of the time its far away from 34C.
Insulate for summer

 

[Hivemaker.]

And allow adequate ventilation for all the that moisture to be removed from the honey, or it takes even more energy.