Oxalic - how does it kill varroa

[Finman]

..
What a rubbish debate!. No one has never written that trickling syrup is 7,5%.

Nanetti is one of the trickling inventor. He started 13 years ago with 60 sugar and 4,2% OA.

Now we live year 2012, almost.

Forget that "Randy, the science beekeeper in USA". He does not have a single new information or solution to varroa problem. He just mix old and new information and out his own believings inside the issue.
He writes more than think.

In those countries, where is no brood brake, varroa is still a big problem. That is reason why USA makes its own researches. New Zealand and African countries have this problem too.
Varroa spreads just now in Africa with good speed. Africa is 3 times as large as Europe.

 

[WI-USA-BEEK]

“ These countries have very high food hygieny level too and they do not accept what ever results beeresearches give. “

This would be the norm almost everywhere you go with just about all research. If otherwise we would most likely not even be discussing this topic.

“ The problem of USA is that the knowledge which USA produes seems to be valid from Florida to Alaska. Even hive models and beestocks are the same. “

Simply not true. You will see stated over and over that your success or methods used will vary or need to be adjusted to your area. Beestocks of choice have changed several time since the first honeybees were introduced to the united states. Italians have been the bee of choice for many years now and for a reason. Migratory beekeeping has also dominated the industry for many years now. Over half of all commercial colonies travel to California each season for almond pollination. Beekeepers in northern locations bring their bees there in November before it gets to cold. Many other winter their bees in Texas, Flordia, or other states that stay warm in the winter. For this reason Italians fit the bill for most beekeepers. Other use Italians that have adjusted well for Northern climates. Carnies are also used and are gaining popularity in the north. Before Varroa, commercial beekeepers here in Wisconsin which has winters much colder than youself would winter Italians with about 90% or better on average. We also have a flow that starts in spring as soon as the bees are able to forage and continues util the first frost with very little dearth. Italians again are a great beestock to take advantage of this.

You just sit back in Finland and think you know better than beekeeping families with 5 or more generations under their belt.

“ I have teached many years how to use trickling to boath great nations but it has been difficult. And I have given links to basic reseaches but but and but. “

Keep teaching, OA is not an approved method in the USA and is therefore more or less illegal so if you are surprised at a lack of gathering students I dont know what to tell ya.


“ vaporizing has been used at least 20 years. Perhaps Randy has not even bees when it was in common use. “

So whats your point? Is randy not eligible to understand science then or what? Bill gates was barley out of his diapers when he started a software empire, sounds like this should not have been possible until at least his 50th birthday!

 

[WI-USA-BEEK]

"Forget that "Randy, the science beekeeper in USA". He does not have a single new information or solution to varroa problem. He just mix old and new information and out his own believings inside the issue.
He writes more than think."

Nobody is saying he has any new information. Information on his website is simply used for reference. I dont know why you get so worked up when ever someone uses a website from the USA and quotes text from it. You always go on defensive mode and try to discredit them when there is nothing to discredit.
No different than if someone were to quote some text you have provided somewhere then having some bone head jump right in and say it has no value because they are in a small county with no people and were born after Aristotle and cant possible have anything valuable to contribute.

Rubbish, I dont think so. We could all use a lot more beekeepers like Randy Oliver who actually take the time and try stuff with their own bees using scientific methods with controls and share it with the rest of the beekeeping community instead of being the grouch from sesame street

 

[jakethedog]

can't personally see any need to dismiss the effort which Randy Oliver puts into both his own site and the articles which he writes for the bee magazines. The bee world would be no better off if he didn't make the effort. Lets also not forget that he's running a commercial migratory business of around 500 colonies -not huge compared to some but he still needs to keep them in the best shape that he can if he's going to make a living.

I've re-read this thread a couple of times and just can't find any justifiable reason for knocking Oliver's efforts. Perhaps some one can explain.

 

[Finman]

.
Randy Oliver wrote his first lettr in 2006.

A good reaseach takes 3 years period to see what dfferenst years affects.

I have nothing against Randy Oliver, but those who keep him "scientific beekeeper" i cannot understand.

I have an education of researcher in biology from Helsinki University.

To use "scientfic methods" in beekeeping is nonsense. No one can do it. It is too expencive and unpractical. Others say that they are "natural beekeepers". That is nonsence too.
I woud say that I try to be " a benchmarking beekeeper". I let others do the development. I cannot sacrifice my all hives to DIY SCIENCE.

 

[WI-USA-BEEK]

" I've re-read this thread a couple of times and just can't find any justifiable reason for knocking Oliver's efforts. Perhaps some one can explain "

There is no reason to knock off Olivers efforts. Read his OA trials. As far as I can remember he does not once make a claim he knows what kills varroa. He does make reference to other research opinions and also give theory's or maybes to what he thinks might have something to do with it. He does not claim to be a great scientist whos opinions should be worshiped. What he is, is a beekeeper who cant keep his hands and mind off of his bees and he has to constantly tinker with stuff. He backs up or discredits information already out there. When something does not work like he guesses to begin with, he does not claim he has proven it, he states it has not worked for him and that he does not believe it does and leaves it up to you to choose for yourself.

He does a sugar dusting trial that I love. It shows (as far as im concerned) that its a waste of time. You would have to sugar dust every week or two all season to have any noticeable effect on the varroa population.

I simply dont understand all the frustration finman has with him.

 

[mbc]

Feeding unground barley to a baby would indeed result in barley in the diaper, cant see the relevence to a thread on how oxalic acid kills varroa though.
FWIW I think Randy's articles are tghought provoking and interesting, his contribution to debate on Bee-l are also worth a read, but I also take Finmans point in that it should all be taken with a pinch of salt in an european context.

 

[boca]

Keep teaching, OA is not an approved method in the USA and is therefore more or less illegal

The land of the free more or less.

 

[Finman]

He does a sugar dusting trial that I love. It shows (as far as im concerned) that its a waste of time. You would have to sugar dust every week or two all season to have any noticeable effect on the varroa population.

I simply dont understand all the frustration finman has with him.

yes.

Sugar dusting is 10 years old trick it has been researched several times that is does not work
in practical level

in the year 2000 Dr Kamran Fakhimzadeh developed in laboratory in Helsinki University Finland and a researcher got a doctor tittle from that, but no one have used here. At same time European Varroa Group sieved best methods and we took into use the methods at once. Our Seppo Korpela was in the Group.

Seppo Korpela tested the sugar dusting and noticed that it does not work . Korpela has studied beekeeping in California University 40 years ago. Now he is in Coloss project


Usa beek, I think that you are guite new on this area.

 

[boca]

I believe OA acts differently than Formic acid. The difference between the two acids is IMHO that the formic acid molecule can enter the cuticle and dissociate the H+ ion in the hemolimph; while OA has to be in aqueos solution in the hive to be effectice (according to Nanetti's experiment in the first link).
The difference between the mite and bee cuticle is a fact not irrelevant in this context.
(this is still an opinion, not evidence unfortunately)
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/FAFumigat.pdf

Why does it kill varroa mites and tracheal mites but not honey bees‘?
Mites have cuticles more permeable to FA: formic acid
directly enters their hemolymph, acidifying the acarine
brood, killing the mites. Honey bees have a cement layer
covering the epicuticle which repels many external chem-
icals like FA. This cetnent layer is thinner and less effec-
tive in some larvae and newly emerged adult bees which
is why we see some mortality (100-500/colony) of small
or recently eclosed larvae and of newly eclosed workers
and drones. The vast majority of the bees are not harmed
by 50% FA fumigation.

 

[WI-USA-BEEK]

Hopefully the answer to OA efficacy on varroa will be reveled in the near future and its understanding will allow for even more effective use of OA against varroa all while being more friendly to our bees.

 

[Finman]

Hopefully the answer to OA efficacy on varroa will be reveled in the near future and its understanding will allow for even more effective use of OA against varroa all while being more friendly to our bees.

near future?

It has been used in industrial scale over 10 years.

That is a typical pray from 2 hive owners. OA EFFICACY....? When you look internet, there are tens of researches there. Millions of dollars have been spent to researches.

And you love dust sugar method....

 

[For want of a better word]

near future?

It has been used in industrial scale over 10 years.

That is a typical pray from 2 hive owners. OA EFFICACY....? When you look internet, there are tens of researches there. Millions of dollars have been spent to researches.

​

The answer is 42.......
............now what was the question?

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Wassail !

 

[Vergilius]

An exact replica of this thread seems to come round all the time. No doubt, someone else will be asking the same Qs next week; oxalic always scares the newbees. Me, never done it. Never needed to - thymol in august is enough until you have a proper infestation IMHO.

Ben P

 

[RoofTops]

...oxalic always scares the newbees. Me, never done it. Never needed to - thymol in august is enough until you have a proper infestation IMHO.

Ben P

Words fail me...

 

[Black Comb]

An exact replica of this thread seems to come round all the time. No doubt, someone else will be asking the same Qs next week; oxalic always scares the newbees. Me, never done it. Never needed to - thymol in august is enough until you have a proper infestation IMHO.

Ben P

I'm not a newbie.
I've used it for the past 3 years.
Someone asked me the question, I couldn't find an answer, so I asked.

Can you please link the previous threads that have answered this question.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If people didn't ask the same question perennially, and then noone contributed to the new post because it 'has been asked before', there'd be no discussions therefore no forum and we'd all just atrophy away like the dark side. It usually pays to revisit a subject as it helps remind us of what to do and there may be some new info out there (and some newbies)
It's winter what else have we to do?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

An exact replica of this thread seems to come round all the time. No doubt, someone else will be asking the same Qs next week;

possibly because of several hundred replies Im not sure the OP has been definitively answered yet (at least not without a rebuke)

 

[jakethedog]

possibly because of several hundred replies Im not sure the OP has been definitively answered yet (at least not without a rebuke)

Which is possibly why this post

Hopefully the answer to OA efficacy on varroa will be reveled in the near future and its understanding will allow for even more effective use of OA against varroa all while being more friendly to our bees.

received such a dismissive response -it's been so long that they'd forgot what WI-BEEK was actually refering to; at least, I understood the meaning to be that he was commenting on the op question rather than the end result.

 

[For want of a better word]

Words fail me...

That's a first !​

​

Nothing like a sense of humour......