Overwintering question

[menteth]

Hi Everyone,
A quick question about over wintering.
4 hives . 14x12 .

We live in woody area.
Every September we get lots of ivy honey. I usually leave this on the hives. (One full super, on top of the Brood box).

However, very occasionally when it’s really cold, the bees can’t get to the super and sometimes they’ve died of starvation with a full super only inches away.

My question is this:
Does anyone put a super of stores“below” the brood box (instead of on top)?

Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

14x12 don’t need a super on top. The stores they need are easily accommodated in the brood box. Thats easily ensured by removing the super before you feed them or the bees start collecting Ivy. You just need to make sure they have enough in the brood box.
The only reason to put a super of stores underneath is so that the bees move the honey up into the brood box

 

[enrico]

Can I ask the obvious question. Did you remove the queen excluder?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

14x12 don’t need a super on top. The stores they need are easily accommodated in the brood box. Thats easily ensured by removing the super before you feed them or the bees start collecting Ivy. You just need to make sure they have enough in the brood box.
The only reason to put a super of stores underneath is so that the bees move the honey up into the brood box

the only thing you've done by putting a super on is encourage them to store food further away from the cluster
BTW, did you remove the queen excluder?

 

[Ian123]

As above 14x12 is more than ample for winter stores, and stores in the super would be better off in the brood box. I don’t think the additional super would be a reason for the colony deaths either. However there’s additional space that won’t hold warmth and personally I find bees winter better if the box fits the cluster, I find they are drier and cleaner in the Spring! Whilst isolation starving is not uncommon, it shouldn’t be happening regularly. I often suspect there’s sometimes other factors as well. What’s your treatment practices, also monitor your hives through the winter and early spring for weight, beekeepers who are proactive and remember they have bees during the winter will loose fewer hives.

 

[menteth]

Hi Everyone.
I generally don’t lose Bees in the winter. Just sometimes.

What I’ve found is that; here, where we are, if I feed them syrup from mid August, they fill the hive with syrup winter stores.
Then, the crazy ivy comes, and the Bee’s go mad for it, and I’ve had hives so happy for forage, that they then try to expand and then swarm, (with all the problems you’d associate with very late swarming).

I’ve had best results, leaving them alone to fill their hives with just ivy, and adding a bit of fondant above the crown board (if necessary)

I usually Macqs (anti varroa) in early sept.

And then leave the hives alone.
Queen excluder left in place.

I always insulate the roof.

With the queen excluder on, then the winter cluster can’t get to the bubble of hot air in the roof? (As they won’t leave the queen). Hence starvation?

My thought was to either move the super to below.

Or remove the queen excluder.

However, I don’t really want brood In the super.

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

where we are, if I feed them syrup from mid August, they fill the hive with syrup winter stores.

then why on earth start winter feeding them in the middle of the summer?

 

[Ian123]

Hi I suggest being careful with maqs many report issues, secondly if your in an area with good ivy and it’s obviously also weather dependent why fill the hives with syrup so early, If you don’t want brood in supers take them off, but I personally wouldn’t worry apart from the fact it’s a pain with the half. I’m topping some up atm purely because weather allows. 3rd… never leave a queen excluder on in winter!!!!!.. 4th… forget swarming at that time of year bees are shutting down for winter and realistically so few swarm after the main flow it’s really not an issue. I put some of the very few late swarms down to supersedure going wrong but again it’s very rare. You can quite literally pack bees in till they are hanging out the door and they won’t bugger off!.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

also weather dependent why fill the hives with syrup so early

maybe the answer lies in the usual camp, just happened upon the August issue of the BBKA comic whilst sorting out the recycling (budgie refuses to have it on the cage floor) and that trumpet Quinlan is advising people get their hives up to full winter weight ASAP

 

[menteth]

Hi Everyone,
I generally don’t feed from mid August. However, “the flow” here stops pretty abruptly here
At the beginning of aug. And once the supers are removed (to spin), there is a month before the ivy, when the Bee’s can get hungry. So I sometimes help them along.

Good advice on removing all supers. I’ll remove from now on.

Just had a look in hives. Full brood. Lots of drones still!
Global warming perhaps?

Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can I ask the obvious question. Did you remove the queen excluder?

Would that make any difference in a 14x12? It’s not like the bees need to go up there anyway?

 

[Ian123]

Would that make any difference in a 14x12? It’s not like the bees need to go up there anyway?

Why chance it….and with only a super I’m pretty sure most clusters would extend between the boxes. It’s just not needed though.

 

[BugsInABox]

Hi Everyone.
I generally don’t lose Bees in the winter. Just sometimes.

What I’ve found is that; here, where we are, if I feed them syrup from mid August, they fill the hive with syrup winter stores.
Then, the crazy ivy comes, and the Bee’s go mad for it, and I’ve had hives so happy for forage, that they then try to expand and then swarm, (with all the problems you’d associate with very late swarming).

I’ve had best results, leaving them alone to fill their hives with just ivy, and adding a bit of fondant above the crown board (if necessary)

I usually Macqs (anti varroa) in early sept.

And then leave the hives alone.
Queen excluder left in place.

I always insulate the roof.

With the queen excluder on, then the winter cluster can’t get to the bubble of hot air in the roof? (As they won’t leave the queen). Hence starvation?

My thought was to either move the super to below.

Or remove the queen excluder.

However, I don’t really want brood In the super.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Most seem to be saying trying ditch the super. But if you can’t, I’m pretty sure you should ditch the queen excluder.

 

[Ian123]

Hi Everyone,
I generally don’t feed from mid August. However, “the flow” here stops pretty abruptly here
At the beginning of aug. And once the supers are removed (to spin), there is a month before the ivy, when the Bee’s can get hungry. So I sometimes help them along.

Good advice on removing all supers. I’ll remove from now on.

Just had a look in hives. Full brood. Lots of drones still!
Global warming perhaps?

Thanks

Yes it’s a fair point re stores after honey removal, I think all we are saying is don’t over do it to early. I’m also sure there’ll be posts here in the spring with people saying I fed my bees but they starved or emergency feed questions by some who completed feeding early. Or even from some that are told by beekeeping mags they can’t feed this time of the season.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would that make any difference in a 14x12? It’s not like the bees need to go up there anyway?

often, with that much space you end up with the majority of stores up there and loads of space in the brood box

 

[enrico]

Would that make any difference in a 14x12? It’s not like the bees need to go up there anyway?

Because he never said that the brood box was full of stores, merely that he uses a 14x12!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Because he never said that the brood box was full of stores, merely that he uses a 14x12!

That’s true. Doesn’t he say somewhere

Just had a look in hives. Full brood. Lots of drones still!
Global warming perhaps?

Is that brood?
Then maybe a change of bee might be in order?
Are they Italian?

 

[Ian123]

That’s true. Doesn’t he say somewhere

Is that brood?
Then maybe a change of bee might be in order?
Are they Italian?

Don’t believe all the hype there’s some very good Italians and they’ll respond to the seasons as other bees!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Don’t believe all the hype there’s some very good Italians and they’ll respond to the seasons as other bees!

I was simply wondering.

 

[plain_hunt]

14x12 don’t need a super on top.

I disagree with this. I keep mine on 14x12s. I was also told they don’t need a super on over winter. SOME 14x12s may not need a super, but if you have a large colony there is not enough room for them to have enough winter stores In the brood box. I leave a super on over winter and I put it underneath. Most of the time it is empty come spring, they may have moved it up, but there’s not that much left in the brood box for them to move back to the super later in the spring. Putting it under the brood usually means the queen doesn’t lay in it And I have an empty super ready for the spring flow.