Nature, Legislation and Angels

As I just explained in a post, I would like to continue in this new one the deviation that was caused in the main post.
The title refers to nature, law and angels. The reason is to answer about.
Wild swarms and their status within beekeeping legislation.
and the angels?

 

[Newbeeneil]

Don’t nail it strap it!!! Plenty of good and cheap 4m straps at builders merchants. I always prefer them in the sun to get the wax/oils cooking up and sending off scent trails. A good spot of mine is a massive oak tree in the middle of a large field, it obviously stands out as a real feature.

Sounds a lovely place to put a box but my best ever bait hive was in the "V" of a small apple tree completely hidden from view under leaves. I took 3 swarms over a 14day period.
I have 3 boxes in a wood which picked up 6 swarms in total last year. One on a tree about 5' up the trunk and 2 hooked on a railway fence hidden under honey suckle and rhododendron bushes.
I'm sure there are "ideal" sites but I've found that if there are bees around they will find any suitable box!

 

[fian]

It would be just the other way around. The swarm leaves the apiary as animus revertendi (the beekeeper can chase it, but if it lands on a very tall tree, it may give up taking it because of the difficulty). The swarm will continue until its definitive settlement (around 3 days, according to the literature). If the beekeeper knows the place of settlement, he can claim his property in the following 20 days. After those 20 days, it would become the property of the owner of the farm where it has settled. Only if this place were protected by law would it become a ferae naturae.

As soon as you nail a box to a Woodland Trust tree you may well break a law.

When you see a swarm on private land, by all means ask permission to take it, but the window of opportunity is narrow before it is no longer a swarm.

In property law, honey bees fall into two categories: animus revertendi, a hived or nested bee which intends to return to that site and remains the property of the beekeeper or property owner. Ferae naturae is a wild creature, does not intend to return and may be taken and become the property of anyone (provided, I assume, that permission of the property owner is granted).

This googlable status was established by the Romans and applies also to many other human actions; reference will be found in the Frimston & Smith booklet Beekeeping and the Law: Swarms and Neighbours.


This seems a strange way to establish ownership, because after 2 days it will no longer be ferae naturae (a swarm) but animus revertendi, an established colony owned by the person on whose property it has settled. Fian's description suggests that whether or not the beekeeper pursues the colony in the generous 2 to 20 day window, it remains the beekeeper's property regardless. All very odd.

 

[buffon]

This googlable status was established by the Romans and applies also to many other human actions; reference will be found in the Frimston & Smith booklet Beekeeping and the Law: Swarms and Neighbours.

I wouldn't trust Google on matters of the law. I don't consider myself thick, but I still struggle to understand the language used in case law.

I haven't read Beekeeping and the Law, but I doubt it contains anymore explanation regarding swarms than the case I previously linked. Does it explain it more in layman's terms? I've read BDS v CWF a couple of times and still don't quite get it all.

There is probably an interesting case to be had where somebody places hives on somebody else's land and the landowner then blocks access to those hives. Who's bees are they?

 

[Erichalfbee]

If the beekeeper knows the place of settlement, he can claim his property in the following 20 days.

I wouldn’t take kindly to somebody turning up to remove HIS bees from MY bait hive.

 

[fian]

I wouldn’t take kindly to somebody turning up to remove HIS bees from MY bait hive.

It is unlikely that having given up on picking it up, you will look for the place of final settlement. Time plays against him, it is only 20 days from the withdrawal.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

with us it's quite simple - if you keep the swarm in sight from the time it leaves your property to the time it settles it is yours, once you lose sight of it it's anyone's. If it has settled and you decide just to tell everyone it's yours, then wander off to go home for a cup of tea/get your swarm box or whatever - the minute you walk away from it - you have relinquished any claim you imagine you had to the bees.
If a beekeeper in the UK believes they can just turn up on someone else's land three or twenty days hence and still claim ownership they are sadly deluded and probably end up with one of the following
a) a bill for any perceived damages/removal
b) a punch in the mouth
c) promotion to village idiot

 

[Erichalfbee]

Or all.

 

[ericbeaumont]

The link to the complex fishing legal case is not especially useful as it compares ferae naturae and domitae naturae, and I doubt anyone would claim that bees are, or could be, domesticated.

I haven't read Beekeeping and the Law

Three quid from ABE books is not a lot to pay to find out the views of Solicitor David Frimston & His Honour Judge David Smith QC.

Bees-at-law by Noel Sweeney was a more recent exploration and published by NBB a few years ago. Sweeney was, or is, a practising Barrister (one speciality was animal law) but as I skimmed it at an NBB Honey Show stand Jeremy Burbidge was honest enough to comment that the writing was not good, but that Sweeney was determined to publish unedited. It was a temporary bedtime read, and certainly sent me to sleep quickly.

struggle to understand the language used in case law.

Me too, horrible stuff.

 

[Beesnaturally]

If its one of my swarms I'll follow it across fields without a thought. The worst that can happen is a farmer appearing and asking you to leave, but if you explain pleasantly (if quickly) 99% of time they'll agree. Even if they didn't I'd probably carry on and argue later if they wanted to. A swarm in a garden, mine or anyone's, its polite to knock on a door and ask if they'd mind. I've never had a refusal, nor do they mind cutting shrubbery away as you need as long as you ask first. Most are only too pleased to have them taken.

Issues of law never ever come into it. Nor does violence, and unless you were daft enough to be unpleasant or break property, neither does reputation. Just get on with the job and encourage people to watch and enjoy. Swarm collecting is a great way to make friends, share a thrill and educate, whatever the circumstances. I share some territory with another beekeepers, and we snatch each other's swarms without hesitation. "I'm pretty sure that one was mine', he says, 'No ways it was easily mine, yours always go the other way' I reply. We chuckle together, and that's that: first come first served.

 

[ericbeaumont]

The swarm leaves the apiary as animus revertendi

No, it leaves as ferae naturae and will not return unless the beekeeper has clipped the queen's wings.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

with us it's quite simple - if you keep the swarm in sight from the time it leaves your property to the time it settles it is yours, once you lose sight of it it's anyone's. If it has settled and you decide just to tell everyone it's yours, then wander off to go home for a cup of tea/get your swarm box or whatever - the minute you walk away from it - you have relinquished any claim you imagine you had to the bees.
If a beekeeper in the UK believes they can just turn up on someone else's land three or twenty days hence and still claim ownership they are sadly deluded and probably end up with one of the following
a) a bill for any perceived damages/removal
b) a punch in the mouth
c) promotion to village idiot

Better not be on someone with Tony Martins approach to intruders. Especially with access to a working excavator!

 

[ericbeaumont]

Issues of law never ever come into it

Likely to be the case, but it's useful - essential - that beekeepers are aware of the distinction; most don't pause to find out before volunteering to collect and reaching for the ladder.

follow it across fields without a thought. The worst that can happen is a farmer appearing and asking you to leave ... 99% of time they'll agree. Even if they didn't I'd probably carry on and argue later if they wanted to

The two fields we crossed when going after that Hertfordshire swarm were owned by the man alongside me, but I wouldn't have done it if he hadn't.

Keeping good relations with farmers is a valuable asset (they all seem to know each other) and I'd never risk their displeasure.

 

[pargyle]

Don’t nail it strap it!!! Plenty of good and cheap 4m straps at builders merchants. I always prefer them in the sun to get the wax/oils cooking up and sending off scent trails. A good spot of mine is a massive oak tree in the middle of a large field, it obviously stands out as a real feature.

Probably sits on confluence of energy lines too ... individual trees - particularly Old Oaks seem to.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Probably sits on confluence of energy lines too ... individual trees - particularly Old Oaks seem to.

My potting shed does. I managed to prove it with those divining thingies you made

 

[pargyle]

My potting shed does. I managed to prove it with those divining thingies you made

There's a cherry tree/lilac bush in my front garden that swarms come to ... right on the intersection of three lines. One line goes up through my neighbours front garden and there's another intersection in the middle of a cotoneaster bush and swarms land there as well - bugger to get them out of a cotoneaster bush and there's no logic to them choosing such a less than ideal spot ....

 

[Beesnaturally]

Likely to be the case, but it's useful - essential - that beekeepers are aware of the distinction; most don't pause to find out before volunteering to collect and reaching for the ladder.

I've never known the law. Its never ever been an issue or come up. Be polite and friendly and reasonable, and aware that the worst that can happen is that you'll fall off a ladder.

The two fields we crossed when going after that Hertfordshire swarm were owned by the man alongside me, but I wouldn't have done it if he hadn't.

Keeping good relations with farmers is a valuable asset (they all seem to know each other) and I'd never risk their displeasure.

But crossing their field in pursuit of a swarm isn't going to upset them - as long as you are being reasonable. Don't tread on crops or break anything, obviously, don't frighten lambing ewes. Nobody is going to throw you in jail, there will never be any sort of legal consequence.

 

[fian]

with us it's quite simple - if you keep the swarm in sight from the time it leaves your property to the time it settles it is yours, once you lose sight of it it's anyone's. If it has settled and you decide just to tell everyone it's yours, then wander off to go home for a cup of tea/get your swarm box or whatever - the minute you walk away from it - you have relinquished any claim you imagine you had to the bees.
If a beekeeper in the UK believes they can just turn up on someone else's land three or twenty days hence and still claim ownership they are sadly deluded and probably end up with one of the following
a) a bill for any perceived damages/removal
b) a punch in the mouth
c) promotion to village idiot

Just because it can chase it down and pick it up doesn't mean it can destroy everything in its path. You must indemnify the owners of the farms if you cause damage.
It is also possible to prove that it really is a swarm from his apiary, especially if he has lost sight of it, the new owner can decide to go to court and the judge will decide. Once again I reiterate and he has decided to give it up for lost because he was going to bother to find out where it has settled.

 

[Moobee]

A swarm in a public place can be taken by whoever gets there first, but a bee swarm on private property can only be taken with the permission of the owner of the property. This convention is rooted in the old common law of property and the ownership of chattels.

Lots here
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/swarm-ownership-law.5458/

Read a few pages..... the most interesting thing was the number of beeks no longer on the forum!

 

[Moobee]

This means that in the UK there is no chance of a wild swarm as it can be picked up by someone (usually a concerned beekeeper).

I missed several that I was called out to. One left as I was approaching it. Usually because the public don't think to call anyone straight away but leave it for a day. Or two...

 

[Beesnaturally]

I missed several that I was called out to. One left as I was approaching it. Usually because the public don't think to call anyone straight away but leave it for a day. Or two...

They can fly straight to a cavity they've had sussed out for weeks. I don't know how common this is, but in evolutionary terms it has to be a better bet making a choice before leaving. You often see them sussing out bait hives and I often get false alarm calls from house owners. Why make a pitstop halfway if you can leave one place of safety and go straight to the next?