Nature, Legislation and Angels

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As I just explained in a post, I would like to continue in this new one the deviation that was caused in the main post.
The title refers to nature, law and angels. The reason is to answer about.
Wild swarms and their status within beekeeping legislation.
and the angels?
 
The treating non treatment and bees developing resistance falls flat with the simple fact….Even when treatments are used nothing is 100% there’s always varroa to some degree no treatment is 100% effective your just controlling the level. Breeders like Norton will achieve far more than some bloke pulling swarms out of trees and maintain beneficial traits that could well be lost in nature if even there in the first place.
 
One questions:
How big are the bees in your association?
Natural comb?
Agricultural treatments in monoculture areas close to their apiaries?
How big? Look normal to me
Natural comb? No
No agricultural treatments for miles.
 
How big? Look normal to me
Natural comb? No
No agricultural treatments for miles.
For workers
Normal more than 13 mm in length.
Small less than 12.5mm.
Large, more than 14.5 mm in length.
But it looks much better on queens.
Normal queen more than 20 mm in length.
Small queen below 20 mm.
Abdomen 2/3 parts to avoid queens that are not very fertile or poorly developed.
 
bee size?
What is this obsession with dwarf bees - the theories on small cells was proven to be deluded rubbish ears ago
Small cells are one thing and small sizes are another, within the same species there are taller and shorter individuals.
 
"Bees ARE being prevented from adapting by treatment;"

SO explain when our Association had bees from Colonsay - with no prior exposure to varroa and hence no adaptation possible - they had after 4 months a huge varroa infestation, whilst other established treated colonies in the same apiary had "normal" varroa levels.

As neither had been treated in this period , the ONLY explanation - and remember the Colonsay colonies started with the same levels of infestation as the others ( as they started with queens added to local bees) - is that local bees treated but with over 20 years exposure to varroa had actually developed some immunity. The Colonsay Qs had none.


So I suggest treatment does NOT mean no immunity but possibly some.


After all, when varroa came to the UK, many thousand of colonies died but some did not.. And the remaining bees were treated and survived/

SO history says many UK stocks have some natural immunity by surviving the initial varrroa shock.




"
Yes, if you take the highlighted statement literally, it is wrong; but I don't think it was meant literally.
 
The treating non treatment and bees developing resistance falls flat with the simple fact….Even when treatments are used nothing is 100% there’s always varroa to some degree no treatment is 100% effective your just controlling the level. Breeders like Norton will achieve far more than some bloke pulling swarms out of trees and maintain beneficial traits that could well be lost in nature if even there in the first place.

If a trait is really useful in Nature it is not likely to be lost. If human, breeder selection produces queens with useful traits, those bees will also need to have all the other traits that make them suited to the environments in which we keep them. If not, we will be in a constant cycle of needing to buy new queens from those special sources. I know that approach already suits many people, but some of us would prefer to be able to sustain our own stocks of bees.

There is room for all of these ways of beekeeping and it's a shame that a few beekeepers on all sides are liable to become so polarised, intransigent and intolerant of the preferences of others. :)
 
"Bees ARE being prevented from adapting by treatment;"

SO explain when our Association had bees from Colonsay - with no prior exposure to varroa and hence no adaptation possible - they had after 4 months a huge varroa infestation, whilst other established treated colonies in the same apiary had "normal" varroa levels.
You don't say which, if any, were treated in this time. Without that information I can't do anything
After all, when varroa came to the UK, many thousand of colonies died but some did not.. And the remaining bees were treated and survived/
I can't see what your thinking is here.
SO history says many UK stocks have some natural immunity by surviving the initial varrroa shock.
First, thanks for introducing the concept of levels of resistance.

Leaving that 'so' off (because I don't have access to your foregoing rationale) ... I agree many UK stocks do have a measure of resistance. That will be because genes from adapted feral/wild stocks are feeding in.
But every time a hive is kept alive, that would have died, or struggled without help, and every time un- resistant queens from breeders and beekeepers are given life and maintained, the local resistance levels are driven backwards.
 
No, literally.
That doesn't address @madasafish 's misdirection that the native, Colonsay bees can't deal with varroa whilst treated bees seem to have some limited, innate resistance. Treatment is limiting, slowing down or obstructing the acquisition of resistance to mites, but it isn't preventing it.
 
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If a trait is really useful in Nature it is not likely to be lost. If human, breeder selection produces queens with useful traits, those bees will also need to have all the other traits that make them suited to the environments in which we keep them. If not, we will be in a constant cycle of needing to buy new queens from those special sources. I know that approach already suits many people, but some of us would prefer to be able to sustain our own stocks of bees.
I agree with all that.
Treatment is limiting, slowing down or obstructing the acquisition of resistance to mites, but it isn't preventing it.
Its not easy to set this out... but...

If/where bees gain no benefit from adapting to varroa, they won't adapt. The required behaviours take time and energy (not much, but evolution is very into fine-tuning - waste can be a matter of life or death).

So what are the circumstances under which isolated, treated apiary bees might gain resistance? One way would be light treatment that would expose the less capable, but...
... that would only have the required effect under a program of replacing poor queens with queens from strong hives.

You need that positive breeding (or letting nature do that for you) and it must be, always, always, be a continuous process. (To be able to do that of course you need to be able to distinguish the more from the less resistant. Systematic treating will blind you to that.)

In that way, you are pressing in the right direction. (Find, and then 'make best from best' as the husbandryman's maxim goes)

But in the absence of that ongoing process, the only way treated bees will gain resistance is from local adapted free living drones. And if there are too many treated bees around there probably won't be any of those!

That's roughing things out. In reality is a case of 'the more this, the less that'.
 
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nail a bait box to a tree and collect your "mite resistant" bees ... is it ethical to be taking bees from the wild since I wouldn't do this with any other animal/plant
As soon as you nail a box to a Woodland Trust tree you may well break a law.

When you see a swarm on private land, by all means ask permission to take it, but the window of opportunity is narrow before it is no longer a swarm.

In property law, honey bees fall into two categories: animus revertendi, a hived or nested bee which intends to return to that site and remains the property of the beekeeper or property owner. Ferae naturae is a wild creature, does not intend to return and may be taken and become the property of anyone (provided, I assume, that permission of the property owner is granted).

This googlable status was established by the Romans and applies also to many other human actions; reference will be found in the Frimston & Smith booklet Beekeeping and the Law: Swarms and Neighbours.

the owner of the hive from which it came out can persecute it (compensating for the damages caused in its search), if it decides not to persecute it after 2 days and a claim period of 20, the property will revert to the owner of the hive
This seems a strange way to establish ownership, because after 2 days it will no longer be ferae naturae (a swarm) but animus revertendi, an established colony owned by the person on whose property it has settled. Fian's description suggests that whether or not the beekeeper pursues the colony in the generous 2 to 20 day window, it remains the beekeeper's property regardless. All very odd.
 
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Don’t nail it strap it!!! Plenty of good and cheap 4m straps at builders merchants. I always prefer them in the sun to get the wax/oils cooking up and sending off scent trails. A good spot of mine is a massive oak tree in the middle of a large field, it obviously stands out as a real feature.
 
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