Natural or Unmanaged?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And in the words of the great wildlife film maker and writer Hugh Falkus;
If this thread is of any relevance - my co*k's a kipper

 

[Anduril]

"perspective of honey as medicine not food."

What have humans done for millennia, no sweet tooth then! Big mountain to climb to change the world's view of honey. The third world would be the losers here, sorry it's not a food source!

 

[susbees]

Comments from 213 awaited eagerly in the morning

 

[domino]

And in the words of the great wildlife film maker and writer Hugh Falkus;
If this thread is of any relevance - my co*k's a kipper

His cook was a kipper, bloody clever fish and clearly proves smoking is good for you.

 

[Tom Bick]

Comments from 213 awaited eagerly in the morning

Well having read the post a couple of times I have to say I don’t quite understand it.
Who is talking about shaking babies? Is it on this website you refer to or is it you trying to be cleaver and a bit hot under the collar? Either way its not a good thought or subject for this forum.
I have been told about an old saying that you should always tell your bees all your news good or bad, as they will understand. I like old wife tales as they often have an element of truth.

 

[For want of a better word]

Well having read the post a couple of times I have to say I don’t quite understand it.
Who is talking about shaking babies? Is it on this website you refer to or is it you trying to be cleaver and a bit hot under the collar? Either way its not a good thought or subject for this forum.
I have been told about an old saying that you should always tell your bees all your news good or bad, as they will understand. I like old wife tales as they often have an element of truth.

But to your bees the truth you must tell
Or they wont give you any honey to sell.......

as Ruddyard Kipperlinggs's poem goes !

Well done Domino.. you have one fish merit !
I do not know if Codswallop or Kippers count!
Perhaps the moderator should supervise the scoring ?

Muvch more fun than Duckies methinks!

To any forumites who may think my thoughts and writings flippant...

​

 

[DanBee]

Comments from 213 awaited eagerly in the morning

Yes, similarly eager to see the queries from you, me, and several others responded to but... we all have things to do in the real world rather than hang out here, so we can't expect anyone to reply immediately to every post

 

[sunhivebee]

This is the post to which susbee responded with a grave warning:
Originally Posted by jenkinsbrynmair
Isn't that supressing their natural instinct to swarm?
"Yes, you're right, thanks. But maybe the bees will forgive me if I say "hold back, your mummy wants to follow up an invite to Stoneleigh to meet all these nice people so that we can all celebrate together being nice to the bees and vow never to cut queen bee wings again. Do you know ... I thinks these bees would understand and suppress their instincts.etc etc.!"
Reading this in perfect seriousness and with concern in his heart for my reputation Susbee expressed that as a result of the above I ran a grave risk of never gaining respect in the academic community, not even (sic) that of the man of barefoot beekeeper fame! Dearie me! My ruined prospects.
Susbee, I had no intention to use posts here in order to acquire academic credentials, useful though they might be for, say, a thesis on low-brow debating. But we must get back to bee topics, don't you think? This is why I show above the remainder of my post which you chose to leave out (touchy topic?). Tell me all about your experiences with queen bees. Keep it concise and academically rigorous.

 

[susbees]

Well having read the post a couple of times I have to say I don’t quite understand it.
Who is talking about shaking babies?
.

Heidi not only will not back up any of her stated stances on beekeeping with anything plausible but also talks about the bees as if she considers them human - several posts' worth. Hence an analogy, in human terms - with a very clear never do it to any living thing at the bottom. There is not even mild frustration implied Tom....have you been following the thread? The "science" shook bees for 60 seconds and concluded that they had vertebrate-like depression because their body chemicals were depleted - this was supposed to simulate predator action. I would conclude that it was much more probable that cell damage would cause this.

 

[susbees]

The section not missed out Heidi made no difference to the fact that your bees tell me post and calling yourself their mummy is going to make your position on a committee of academics less credible or even as someone majorly associated with the substitute on said committee.

So it's not the acquiring it's the dilution that's the issue.

So let's return to all the many unanswered questions in this thread Heidi.

 

[sunhivebee]

Yes, similarly eager to see the queries from you, me, and several others responded to but... we all have things to do in the real world rather than hang out here, so we can't expect anyone to reply immediately to every post

Danbee, you will understand, I am sure, that I must save my fire for a "natural beekeepers diary" I have been commissioned to write; the tremendous public interest in some of the "hot potatoes" of beekeeping ( and I say some) I raised in recent DT interview has been noted. Likewise the untiring efforts from certain quarters to detract from the reputation of the organisation which I represent with all manner of wild insinuations. Whilst it is not pleasant for us to witness, we trust it will all serve a good purpose in the end, and that is to draw more and more attention to the benefits of beekeeping for bees, also referred to, for want of a more useful distinction, as natural beekeeping. However, should you have a question, the discussion of which really promises to raise our (beekeepers') understanding of optimum bee husbandry, I suggest you open a new thread on precisely that topic, so we can all get a break from this discussion here, which has no doubt been entertaining in parts, has attracted a great number of viewers but has probably none little to directly benefit the honeybee. As the latter informs much of what I, my fellow trustees, our friends, supporters and donors engage in, I am keen to return to it.

 

[Dishmop]

I had no intention to use posts here in order to acquire academic credentials, useful though they might be for, say,

useful though they might be for, say perhaps learning something about beekeeping for example? because its quite obvious that you know very little.

I bet Heidi's talks dont finish with a question and answer session.

 

[pargyle]

The Natural Beekeeping Trust is based at at Emerson College.

Just about says it all really.

http://www.schoolofstorytelling.com/about-us/venues/emerson-college-england.html

I rather despair at this thread ... I can understand that many of you don't agree with the low interference beekeeping principles practised by many so called 'natural' beekeepers and Heide Hermann is certainly on the far right fringe of 'natural', but I believe that there are lines to be drawn when responding, I feel that some of you have gone beyond the pale and some of the personal comments about Heidi are unwarranted. Indeed, there are one or two who should feel very ashamed of what you have said.

It is clear to me that Heidi is not in this for the money ... there are no books to promote and the course costs (whether you consider their content relevant or not) are not extortionate by comparison to many other courses for beekeeping provided by individual 'expert' conventional beekeepers. Nobody is forcing anyone to take the sun hive course but there are obviously people who are encouraged into beekeeping by this approach and this can only be a good thing for beekeeping in general. I don't subscribe to the theories that an introduction to beekeeping in this fashion will lead only to bad beekeepers ... I suspect that there are as many 'conventional' beekeepers who pack up after a short time or neglect their hives as those who start in a less conventional manner. The frustrations and disappointments of beekeeping fall equally on all sectors of the craft.

Heidi Hermann's concerns are clearly for her bees, the environment and the planet in general and whether you agree or don't agree with her methods the overriding principles by which she operates are to be commended.

There is much to be gained from 'natural' remedies ... a dock leaf for a nettle sting, witchhazel for a bruise, arnaca for sprains etc. There are many doctors who are now seeking to avoid prescription drugs if possible and for those people with mental health problems counselling/spoken treatment is now as important as drugs are in therapy. Beekeepers know that bees respond agressively when the beekeeper is stressed ... we are all told this at a basic level - you need to be calm to handle bees. Bees appear to be at the top of the insect intelligence quotient - it has been proven that they can 'recognise' a face like shape for up to two days and there are clearly things about their behaviour that we do not even begin to understand. Whilst I would not anthropomorphise excessively about bees I do understand what Heidi means ... even if her words are perhaps more emotive than I would use. It seems to me that our relationship with earth's more intelligent species is something that should be one of respect and to be explored, nourished and developed.

Which brings me to your insinuations about Emerson College ... what can possibly be wrong with an institution that offers, amongst others, courses in a wide variety of organic farming methods, courses for personal development through arts, crafts, music, the spoken and written word ? Their 4 day organic poultry keeping course is £210 ... come on, a packet of cigarettes is £8 and diesel over £6.30 a gallon what age are some of you living in !!

Lastly, the current regime of chemical treatment of bees for Varroa can only be viewed as a short or medium term remedy ... the longer term has to come from alternative methods and these appear, at present, to be best led by breeding bees that are able to sustain or hopefully resist Varroa. Perhaps all beekeepers should be more receptive to those beekeepers who are seeking such a goal ... and perhaps a more tolerant view of Heidi Hermann would be a charitable start.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Their 4 day organic poultry keeping course is £210

obviously in the wrong job - time to dust my sandals and wooly hat off methinks

 

[PBee]

"Two points ..... two flats ...... and a packet of gravel" .....

"Should be a good one to-day ...... local boy".......

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uOafmIBvuo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uOafmIBvuo[/ame]

To any forumites who may think my thoughts and writings flippant...

More like total Carp ..... but you're not the Sole offender. ..

 

[Excession]

Emerson College has affiliations with Steiner, a man who believes in Gnomes, and that children shouldn't be taught anything (reading writing etc) until they have a full set of adult teeth. More? See here: http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11/how-steiner-schools-justify-their-occult-pedagogy.html

And as to people's handling of Heidi, I agree there is no need for outright rudeness. However extremists should not be given an inch when it comes to their views. It's the 'let them have their views it's harmless' apathy that results in people less educated being sucked in by the story and results in such recent news as mother wanting to treat her children with homeopathy instead of life saving surgery.

Their opinions may not have an effect on you, but they can do irrepairable demage to society.

If however they can put together a rational evidence based argument, then they will be able to seperate themselves from the 'quack' herd, and be worth listening to. This means doing the study and gathering the evidence first! BEFORE the ideological crusade.

 

[susbees]

I rather despair at this thread ...

Well - I'm a new beekeeper - indeed, I can't even call myself a beekeeper yet as I won't actually have my bees until Spring ..and in the presence of beekeepers of many years standing, massive experience and hundreds, if not thousands, of posts on forums I stand in awe and respect of this assembled congregation.

Evidently not. The October threads were moderated for content by HM and rightly so and those of us you may choose to censure now have not. Practical experience is essential when there is a risk of new beekeepers being taken in by such questionable logic. You will be aware that Steiner's writings on beekeeping hold as much water as a sieve? The concern is that Heidi never answers questions when given the chance to be listened to on a perfectly acceptable platform which is not "owned" by any type of beekeeper or affiliation. Open debate. Not fluffy kittens. Not that I have issues with kittens being a four cat household (all neutered btw) .

 

[susbees]

If however they can put together a rational evidence based argument, then they will be able to seperate themselves from the 'quack' herd, and be worth listening to. This means doing the study and gathering the evidence first! BEFORE the ideological crusade.

 

[Dishmop]

Fortunately for Heidi the world is full of poor gullible people who believe that people like her with new save the world ideas is not in it for themselves but to only create a better world. Fine for Heidi and it gives her believers something to do in life.
One only hopes that all these prospective natural beekeepers will delve a bit further and, after reading other beekeeping books, see that things dont quite somehow equate with what she told them.
Obviously a lot of these followers are not altogether very bright, otherwise they would know that the words "natural" and "keeping" do not go together.
Beekeeping is wrong but she is selling behives to people by showing them how to make them. Manufactured beehives are not natural. Leaving bees alone to make their own decisons as to where to live is natural.

It is wrong to give sugar syrup to bees........"except when".......... no!.... if its wrong its wrong... no exceptions....... Make up your mind. What about the fondant that Heidi feeds to her bees? Is that also wrong?

How does one feed syrup to a colony in a sun hive.

Giving bees outsourced honey is a definate no go, and I wonder if the bee inspectors know you are telling people its Ok to do this, but you are not making them aware that by doing so they could be spreading diseases,???? because if, as you say, you have been trained in beekeeping you would be aware of that fact, just as a trained child minder is taught that shaking a baby is dangerous, and if they do it, they are committing a crime.

Basically the only points Heidi has to make are:-

Its bad to give bees sugar and steal their honey.
Its bad to clip a queens wing/s.
Its bad to fool them into thinking there is no need to swarm.
Fiddling around in beehives is wrong, but selling people a beehive which has frames and and shell that can be removed to look inside is OK?
Continuing to keep bees in the fashion that we do will end the world..........
but keeping them in a straw basket is OK.
Heidi is not even prepared to discuss why she believes she and her ideas will help the survival of the honey bee, but only that they will.
Heidi has no evidence that todays conventional methods are harmful to the honey bee, and that her methods are not.
Has Heidi any good treatment for bee health or to irradicate disease, other than insunuating that a wicker basket might be better for bees?

or talking to them.

We will never know.

 

[Dishmop]

Not that I have issues with kittens being a four cat household (all neutered btw)

Oh dear oh dear.

Have you no idea that I am a founder of the charity for
The Natural Cat Keeping Trust.

Do you put your cats outside at night or do you keep them naturally in a plastic basket?

Do you take their naturally caught mice away and give them Kitee Kat?

and what is the most serious situation is that you have taken away their natural instinct to mate thus causing bleak prospects for the future of the pussy.