Mould and Hive Ventilation

[midnight sun]

Sorry to hear about the bees. You don't say how big the colony became from the nuc you aquired in June. It's possible to get honey from a small'ish colony, but if the conlony stayed small and you had it in a full size hive, then this may have been too big a volume to keep warm with the number of bees it contained. If there are too few bees to cover and keep warm the brood and forage etc then the hive will stuggle to survive. Brood will be left to die and the bees will use up stores rapidly to try and keep the temperature up. Once the bees have died for any reason, the mould will soon take hold with nothing to clear it out or ventilate the hive. Sometimes there is no obvious answer as to why the colony failed. Some have already given you some reasons as to why in this thread. It happens....don't give up hope or blame yourself too much. learn from this as we all have to. Regards Dave

 

[Honeybeeco]

Hi, I visited my hive over the weekend and unfortunately found that my bees had died; there was mould inside so I presume it became too damp.

Quite disappointing, needless to say.

Nick, sorry you've had to experience this failure, it's a blow so soon in your bee keeping career but bees dying, does happen to the best of us, for one reason or another, so your amoungst friends.

I use a wooden hive and your hive setup is identical to mine here at home, except I run double broods or single broods - including having the OMF shut off and it has worked for me - so don't be put of with thinking you've done something stupid and its killed them - I've never experience damp in the hive doing this, even living high up in wet and windy North Wales. Also don't be put off with the thousands of different answers, solutions and reasons you are getting given as to how your bees died. Listen to them, inwardly digest it all and give one of the answers a go next year to see it works for you....or try your own way again - there is no clear wrong or right way With regards beekeeping.

Dust yourself off and try again, you'll regret it if you don't.

Out of curiosity, can I ask what your hive is made out off - wood, poly, plastic and so on, and we're all the parts the same - ef, no mixture of wood and poly.

 

[pargyle]

I'd read that the cause of mould in a hive is due to a lack of ventilation, which makes sense to me.

Oh dear ... what makes sense is that bees, given the option, choose hollow trees to live in .. they prefer a cavity that is closed at the top and has a small hole for an entrance at the bottom .. no air circulation other than what the bes provide for themselves.

Stop thinking like a human and start thinking like a bee ....

Ideal situation .. solid crownboard (preferably something like 6mm clear polycarbonate that you can see through), open mesh floor, at least 50mm of Kingspan above the crownboard and under the roof and if you are on 14x12's a brood box pretty stuffed with honey by the end of the season (either their own or syrup fed to them).

You won't get any mould, you won't get any condensation and next year your bees won't die ...

Varroa and disease is a whole different issue so let's get the basics cast in stone first .. then you can worry about varroa. Too late now, your bees are dead.

 

[user 6228]

I'd read that the cause of mould in a hive is due to a lack of ventilation, which makes sense to me.

Honeybees natural habitat is a mouldy tree with a relative humidity of over 75%.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Nick, a healthy reasonably strong colony would be very unlikely to die out because of a bit of mould, outside combs, floor etc, even in much harder weather than we have had so far, or because of a bit too much ventilation or even not much ventilation.

The two most common causes of losses are usually to do with queen problems or diseases, more often than not vectored by varroa.

 

[pargyle]

The two most common causes of losses are usually to do with queen problems or diseases, more often than not vectored by varroa.

That's very true but with the super being moved below the brood box in October, a newish (probably smallish) colony who have stored a super of honey above the brood next may have had very little in the way of stores in the brood box .. and if they have been kept cold with holes in the Crown board and possible water ingress to boot ...

My money is on starvation ... or at least isolation starvation. The photos of the frames will tell the story. Or they were too small a colony and too cold to produce enough winter bees to survive.

 

[Hivemaker.]

My money is on starvation ...

Mine is on queen or disease problems, varroa related and possibly paralyses, which is becoming a big problem in recent years.

 

[pargyle]

Mine is on queen or disease problems, varroa related and possibly paralyses, which is becoming a big problem in recent years.

Doesn't say much for the health of a Nuc that was got in June then does it ? Must have been ailing before the season ended .. and for a Nuc that was not in good condition to fill a super of stores ??

Always value your opinion Pete .. someone is going to be on the money and it could well be you .. Bath's not that far away from you.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Doesn't say much for the health of a Nuc that was got in June then does it ? Must have been ailing before the season ended .. and for a Nuc that was not in good condition to fill a super of stores ??

If it is to do with mites or paralyses then even big strong colonies can go downhill really fast, within a couple or three weeks.

Paralyses is the latest rising problem in recent years, causing some very big losses, usually some dead bees out front or many piled up dead inside the hive in cooler weather. We all had e mails last year for a survey being carried out by the beefarmers into the spread/incidence of the disease, some have lost over 50% of their colonies, and that is often during the summer as well, when it hits in the autumn the colonies will often just allow themselves to be robbed out, by wasps or other bees, with no fighting or resistance at all, similar can happen when a colony is queenless regards the robbing.

 

[Fritillary]

Paralyses is the latest rising problem in recent years, causing some very big losses, usually some dead bees out front or many piled up dead inside the hive in cooler weather. We all had e mails last year for a survey being carried out by the beefarmers into the spread/incidence of the disease, some have lost over 50% of their colonies

I hadn't realised people were experiencing losses on anything like that scale! V bad news to hear these viruses are becoming such a problem. I was shocked when my (apparently) strongest colony went down last summer: new queen laying like mad, colony nearly filling the hive - then piles of fluffy young perfect-looking bees dead or dying in front of the hive. I don't think it can have been anything else.

(My beekeeping neighbour - a commercial beekeeper - told me he'd asked about/for investigations into viruses. I gathered that nothing much seemed to be being done in that respect, in terms of identifying them in each case etc. Lack of money?)

 

[madasafish]

I hadn't realised people were experiencing losses on anything like that scale! V bad news to hear these viruses are becoming such a problem. I was shocked when my (apparently) strongest colony went down last summer: new queen laying like mad, colony nearly filling the hive - then piles of fluffy young perfect-looking bees dead or dying in front of the hive. I don't think it can have been anything else.

(My beekeeping neighbour - a commercial beekeeper - told me he'd asked about/for investigations into viruses. I gathered that nothing much seemed to be being done in that respect, in terms of identifying them in each case etc. Lack of money?)

My experience of varroa:

Association apiary in 2011:
July: hive on double brood, 3 supers, huge numbers of bees.
end August hive down to half a brood box of bees:

Cause: huge varroa build up overwhelmed bees.

I suspect varroa. Purely on the basis that the OP did not find varroa. Unlikely unless he's on Colonsay /N Scotland.

 

[pargyle]

If it is to do with mites or paralyses then even big strong colonies can go downhill really fast, within a couple or three weeks.

Paralyses is the latest rising problem in recent years, causing some very big losses, usually some dead bees out front or many piled up dead inside the hive in cooler weather. We all had e mails last year for a survey being carried out by the beefarmers into the spread/incidence of the disease, some have lost over 50% of their colonies, and that is often during the summer as well, when it hits in the autumn the colonies will often just allow themselves to be robbed out, by wasps or other bees, with no fighting or resistance at all, similar can happen when a colony is queenless regards the robbing.

Wow ... That's been kept very quiet .. nobody in my beekeeping circle down here has even mentioned it - let alone experienced it. Nothing from the BBKA that I've seen ... is it localised at present or is it something we all need to start and worry about - Wasn't CPBV believed to be what came to be known as the Isle of Wight disease ... ?

 

[Softley]

CBPV killed two colonies of mine last year and I know it was the first year others in my area had had it. It is a worry that it isn't something that is talked about more as it is difficult to identify if you're a new beekeeper. I wouldn't expect a colony with paralysis to last the winter.

Without seeing the colony, or photos, giving reason for the death of a colony is just guess work.

 

[Curley]

Wasn't CPBV believed to be what came to be known as the Isle of Wight disease ... ?

I thought Isle of Wight disease was usually attributed to acarine disease. Which responds to all the other miticides we use to clobber varroa and therefore isin't seen very often.

Have seen CBPV in a club apiary colony which has died out as Softley suggested would happen. How infectious is it? Is it one of these things that bees have and come out when varroa damage is excessive or has it a separate route of infection?

 

[masterBK]

There is genetic variation in the susceptibility of bees to CBPV. Breed Queens from the colonies that show no symptoms and replace the queens from those that do. I used to have several colonies with CBPV in the past but after carrying out fairly rigorous selection and culling over several years I now rarely see either of the two syndromes in my colonies these days (different syndromes due to differences in the genome of the bee as the virus seems to be the same in both cases). Principles of inherited susceptibility to pathogens applies also to incidence of Nosema, chalk brood, and sac brood.

 

[pargyle]

I thought Isle of Wight disease was usually attributed to acarine disease. Which responds to all the other miticides we use to clobber varroa and therefore isin't seen very often.

Have seen CBPV in a club apiary colony which has died out as Softley suggested would happen. How infectious is it? Is it one of these things that bees have and come out when varroa damage is excessive or has it a separate route of infection?

There are theories that it was not acarine that was the IOW disease but CBPV .. as there are no samples left from that time nobody really knows.

CBPV has, apparently, little to do with varroa .. it's a virulent infection that is passed from bee to bee.

Lots of good stuff here if you want a scary read ..

http://aem.asm.org/content/73/23/7711.full

Apparently, it's becoming a major problem in the South with significant losses reported by bee farmers in Southern counties that include Wiltshire, Somerset and Gloucestershire. So I am told .. perhaps some of our bee farmer members could provide some more information ?

 

[MuswellMetro]

I thought Isle of Wight disease was usually attributed to acarine disease. Which responds to all the other miticides we use to clobber varroa and therefore isin't seen very often.

?

get a more modern book, isle of wight diseased bees was caused by CBPV not Acarine according to modern reseach Dr Bailey of Rothamsted Bee unit and who died at 102 this month had doubts as early as 1964


a1964 article by Dr. L. Bailey on the occurrence of acarine disease and “Isle of Wight” disease during the present century. He concluded that “we have no evidence that any parasite we know today was the cause of the wholesale losses of bees. Having examined the evidence, I suspect that the I.O. W. disease was assumed to be the cause of all the losses for which there was no obvious explanation at the time. In this sense it was truly a myth.…



Acarine can kill bees but not as IOW was described with k wing and dead bees outside, Acarine kills by breakdown of cluster due to thermoregulation irregularities in acarine infested hive

The tracheal mite has been associated with colony deaths worldwide since the mite was first discovered in 1919. Yet controversy about its role in honey bee colony mortality has existed since that time. Other pathogens such as bacteria and viruses have been suggested as the cause of colony deaths as well as degenerative changes in individual honey bees. Using data from published work we developed a qualitative mortality model to explain colony mortality due to tracheal mite infestation in the field. Our model suggests that colonies of tracheal-mite infested honey bees, with no other pathogens present, can die out in the late winter/early spring period due to their inability to thermoregulate. An accumulation of factors conspire to cause colony death including reduced brood/bee population, loose winter clusters, reduced flight muscle function and increasing mite infestation. In essence a cascade effect results in the colony losing its cohesion and leading to its ultimate collapse.

 

[Curley]

get a more modern book

Thanks for that MM (and MasterBK and Phil). Interestingly I looked in Hooper, Haynes, Celia Davis and Clive de Bruyn after your remarks.Hooper makes no comment, Haynes, Clive and Celia says IOW disease was acarine with varying degrees of certainty = some scepticism there perhaps.

Not planning to take Mod 3 for a year or so but can you suggest any good books on disease to read before then? Cheers

(And apologies to Nick for hijacking the thread - hopefully of some interest!)

 

[MuswellMetro]

Thanks for that MM (and MasterBK and Phil). Interestingly I looked in Hooper, Haynes, Celia Davis and Clive de Bruyn after your remarks.Hooper makes no comment, Haynes, Clive and Celia says IOW disease was acarine with varying degrees of certainty = some scepticism there perhaps.

Not planning to take Mod 3 for a year or so but can you suggest any good books on disease to read before then? Cheers

(And apologies to Nick for hijacking the thread - hopefully of some interest!)

well being a total nerd this is my current bed time reading

Honeybee Veterinary Medicine: Apis Mellifera L. by Nicolas A. L. Vidal-Naquet (Author) but i wouldnt recommend it, stick to celia and she seem in the 2nd edition under chpt 5 2recent evens" to concur Acarine is not IOW though not is so many words

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for that MM (and MasterBK and Phil). Interestingly I looked in Hooper, Haynes, Celia Davis and Clive de Bruyn after your remarks.Hooper makes no comment, Haynes, Clive and Celia says IOW disease was acarine with varying degrees of certainty = some scepticism there perhaps.

Trouble with a lot of beekeeping books (even some latest ones) they tend to just regurgitate the myths that have gone before ... and it then it gets perpetuated by beekeepers who don't question it ...