Maximum number of colonies...

[birdsandbees]

what a Thoroughly entertaining and informative thread!

I, like many hooked on Beekeeping have pondered the possibility of expansion, the most I have managed while working full time with a growing family and other commitments was 26 colonies over three sites, I found that as already mentioned trying to plan everything into one day and perhaps an evening during the week would be ruined by poor weather or some other family related event, missing that one crucial day could totally throw a spanner in the works!
I've been out in pouring rain with a fishing umbrella in the past trying to do what was needed.
Obviously everyone is different and while I love my hobby it was reaching the point where I was losing the enjoyment so that was that.. for now.
I'm currently still over twenty hives but I've consolidated into two apiaries which saves time.

I have the utmost respect for anyone working full time with a young family that can manage over thirty full hives properly on their own without determent to family life or ending up with exhaustion!

 

[ericbeaumont]

A vastly reduced potential market...plus the fact that the price of a jar of honey can vary hugely from one part of the country to another...honey prices are lower

Yesterday a chap came in to collect a nuc and in conversation revealed that he wanted to expand to be able to supply six local country bakeries with honey. I asked how much he wanted, or how much was offered: about £5/12oz, to which a 30% margin took it to £6.50 on the shelf. He had established that level by looking around in shops and markets and talking to a local beefarmer, who agreed that it was about right for the area. I had the impression that this rate was set (for no real reason) in stone, and suggested he accept it but work with others to raise it slowly over the years.

Three or four years ago an Essex farm shop was selling honey supplied by a local senior beekeeper for £3.50/16oz retail, a price no doubt unchanged since 1976. He was retiring and two beekeeper friends of mine took over the supply, raising it easily to £5/8oz before the margin took it to £6.95 on the shelf. That wasn't too difficult as even the shop manager acknowledged that the old days are over.

In Enfield on the Hertfordshire border another retiring beekeeper sold through a local farm shop. He could produce x and was proud to be able sell it all, every year! No wonder, as it was on the shelf at about £3.80/16oz, about the same price our members used to sell ten years ago. Since then, we've persuaded, suggested and recommended them to set their sights on £6/8oz; by and large, it now sells at that rate.

The retail price of local honey has always been low - I have an old beekeeping magazine from the 1950s complaining of the same problem - and the reason has always lain in the hands of both seller and buyer: the seller, because they have little idea of the value of what they have, or have a lot of it, or are nervous of not selling it, or don't need the money, or don't realise that by selling low they suppress the price for all other beekeepers; the buyer, because tradition has imprinted into their mind that honey is of low value and should be so for evermore.

My customers pay £12/lb for 8oz or 12oz; for 4oz they pay at £14/lb. You may think that's all very well in metro-moneyed Hackney, but I don't sell to Range Rover types and in five years those prices have attracted one suggestion that my honey was a bit dear. I didn't engage with that line; she tasted and bought the honey.

That price was beyond most others at the time and sent out the message that local honey is a quality product that takes hard work (and to pay the mortgage). Once I'd ditched the one-pound jar (doubt anyone would hand over £12 for one of those) the price stayed in acceptable single figures. At that rate I can shift a ton or more a year and go to market every fortnight, all year round. Yes, I could sell it on at £3.50/lb and put my feet up, but I like meeting people and dealing with the end result of labour.

Honey is an emotive - not an essential - sale and customers will go with the retailer if they hear the story and appreciate the product, and the seasonal and local production of good food at proper-ish prices is not unique to the metropolitan South. People make choices how to spend money and it is surprising how many perceive Netflix and and new trainers and ready-meals to be essential elements of existence, when appearing to be outside the affluent bracket. I sell to ordinary people - David, who looks like he has no money and can buy OSR from his friend in Essex at £3, but prefers my honey with flavour - or Amid, who is barely twenty but whose culture has taught him to value honey. These customers understand.

Old days over? If that's to happen, we all have a job to do.

 

[Poly Hive]

This problem hase xisted for a lot longer than the 50's and no doubt will still be with us long after we have gone.

I remember some 12 years ago seeing a shop belonging to a BF in Wales on one of the honey pot towns (no pun) selling floral honey at near £14 a pound and I was frankly astonished that it moved at that price point.

There is no obvious answer to it and I remember reading an article from the 50's explaining how to flush honey down the toilet. Literally!!

PH

 

[ericbeaumont]

This problem has existed for a lot longer than the 50's... There is no obvious answer to it.

The answer lies in changing beekeepers' perception of their product, and that means banging on about it at every beekeeping meeting in the land for the next ten years.

Why might this move the mountain? The UK context in which we now sell has surely changed: first, the importation of about 80% of UK honey produces an unnecessary transport footprint at a time when we're approaching environmental catastrophe. The slow food and organic movement understand that equation, and even supermarket customers must eventually be led down the same path. Secondly, the UK voters who chose Brexit have the opportunity to back it up and buy British and local, and we have the opportunity to sell to them.

The beekeeper who wants to make money must surely aim for a market and price point as part of a colony numbers strategy. If instead the honey is put into blue barrels then the market (and profit) element is out of the producer's hands and instead determined by fluctuating world honey prices, which will always be lower because labour and land is always going to be cheaper elsewhere.

Would you sell an Aston Martin at Aldi prices? That's what the too many UK beekeepers choose to do with their own quality product, and to the detriment of us all.

 

[BMH]

Secondly, the UK voters who chose Brexit have the opportunity to back it up and buy British and local, and we have the opportunity to sell to them.

I fully agree with your statement but you know the majority of those who voted for Brexit will be the first to complain that they cant get 3 chickens for a £5 down at Asda. I doubt they are going to back it up by paying £12/lb for local honey

 

[masterBK]

Unfortunately alot of honey sold by local beekeepers can't be regarded as a quality item if presented for sale with dented/rusty lids, labels not straight and not meeting legal requirements, liquid honey murky not bright with scum complete with wax bits on the surface, visible debris within the jar etc.
Granulated honey with liquid surface layer with a hint of fermentation, large crunchy crystals rather than having smooth spreadable crystal structure etc. I hate to say it but many beekeepers who sell through local shops I (and I have seen these problems in many areas of GB) need to raise their game.

 

[sipa]

Ignore the low end of the market, go for the top 10%.

There are always those who can and will pay a premium, but only for the highest quality or something they can't get elsewhere.

Be innovative..... work smarter not harder !

 

[Adam Bee]

It has to be based on presentation and that “perceived value”. Sainsbury’s “taste the difference” is about £4.5/lb, and Rowse on sale is nearly half that; “basics” is a third.

https://tinyurl.com/y4czv7ub (Sainsbury’s honey for comparison.)

In the favour of local honey, it’s beginning to be understood more widely that honey in stores often isn’t ... honey. Depending where you read, honey is either the 2nd or 3rd most mis-represented product in the world (eg: not honey at all, not pure, not organic, and certainly not manuka!)

When selling local honey, it _must_ be represented as a specialty product. And I agree with the above: spending time on the product and (yes, sadly) its packaging is important to the final sales price. (Now, that being said, I live in a market town and regularly see honey selling on Saturdays for £14/lb in half pound plastic pots with hand written or cheap ink-jet labels on them! So you never know!)

 

[For want of a better word]

Unfortunately alot of honey sold by local beekeepers can't be regarded as a quality item if presented for sale with dented/rusty lids, labels not straight and not meeting legal requirements, liquid honey murky not bright with scum complete with wax bits on the surface, visible debris within the jar etc.
Granulated honey with liquid surface layer with a hint of fermentation, large crunchy crystals rather than having smooth spreadable crystal structure etc. I hate to say it but many beekeepers who sell through local shops I (and I have seen these problems in many areas of GB) need to raise their game.

:winner1st

Sadly true..... a couple of seasons ago one local purveyor of our own top quality Cornish Black bee Honey.... cleared his shelves of one ( now deceased) beekeeper's honey, as it was as you described.. in used jars with rusty lids and incorrect labeling... product looked like lard!

Honey shows with the old 1 lb honey jars probably do not help!

 

[ericbeaumont]

I hate to say it but many beekeepers who sell through local shops I (and I have seen these problems in many areas of GB) need to raise their game.

Too true, but I think it should be said loudly and clearly, because by selling in that way they reinforce the idea that honey is a cheap amateur product.

Ignore the low end of the market, go for the top 10%.
There are always those who can and will pay a premium, but only for the highest quality or something they can't get elsewhere.
Be innovative...work smarter not harder!

Agree with that, Sipa, and as that method is like a pebble in a pond, the ripples will spread eventually.

Those who voted for Brexit will be the first to complain that they cant get 3 chickens for a £5 down at Asda.

And there lies one of the most significant problems of consumer thinking: that they have an automatic right to cheap food, an idea spoon-fed to them by supermarkets. What really is cheap food? Does the farmer or producer benefit? Does the animal, or the land? Does the consumer, able to buy and eat too much? Result is that the NHS is already picking up (and will forever) the bill for the consequences of cheap food sold by profiteering corporates, and the environment will continue to be damaged by the methods used to provide it.

In contrast, there was a powerful story of the UN Global Assessment Report in The Guardian and in a three-minute report on the Today programme on Monday discussing pollinators, food production, ecosystems, farming, and the challenge of producing the food needed to feed an expanding and wealthier global population without destroying nature. Why aren't we doing it? asked John Humphries. The answer is that humans look first for material short-term benefit, and when that is put into practice we end up with the disaster that is the Asda chicken; as much of the food system is controlled by ruthless global corporates who have no interest in anything but profit, the Asda chicken says it all.

Most of us have the option to decide what to eat and what to buy. Perhaps we should all buy less, buy better, and buy locally? Either that, or it's all going to end in tears.

 

[Beefriendly]

Granulated honey with liquid surface layer with a hint of fermentation, large crunchy crystals rather than having smooth spreadable crystal structure etc. I hate to say it but many beekeepers who sell through local shops I (and I have seen these problems in many areas of GB) need to raise their game.

I find it's also the shops that need to raise their game as they don't understand that honey crystallises and sets with age....so they buy far too many jars in one go which then sit on their shelves for ages and eventually crystallise.
You can also blame the beekeeper to some extend as well for not informing the shop that this is likely to happen.
I have a strict policy with the shops I provide, if my clear summer blossom honeys start setting or begins to cloud over it gets replaced gratis.

 

[sipa]

Buy British and buy direct from the producer.

It may be a tad more expensive but quality always trumps quantity.... we all eat too much anyway.

 

[For want of a better word]

Buy British and buy direct from the producer.

It may be a tad more expensive but quality always trumps quantity.... we all eat too much anyway.

I love black acacia honey... wish I could produce it here.
My friends in Latvia produce the greatest apple and cherry honey ever...
they like my Cornish Black bee honey as it has an incredible depth of flavour.

Yes buy the honey produced on these islands.... but have respect for the World market....
We can not all eat nothing but Lundon eel pie or Yourkshire pudding!!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I find it's also the shops that need to raise their game as they don't understand that honey crystallises and sets with age.

My shopkeepers know the score and I supply honey in quantites to suit the turnover of the individual - but as granulated honey is also prefered by some around here, the odd jar setting is of no worry

 

[Gilberdyke John]

My shopkeepers know the score and I supply honey in quantites to suit the turnover of the individual - but as granulated honey is also prefered by some around here, the odd jar setting is of no worry

A few of my locals tell me they like the crystals in granulated honey.

 

[B+.]

Buy British and buy direct from the producer.

It may be a tad more expensive but quality always trumps quantity.... we all eat too much anyway.

I agree, when there is a definite quality difference.
The problem is: so much of what is offered for sale is imported from China anyway.

 

[SDM]

My customers pay £12/lb for 8oz or 12oz; for 4oz they pay at £14/lb. You may think that's all very well in metro-moneyed Hackney, but I don't sell to Range Rover types and in five years those prices have attracted one suggestion that my honey was a bit dear. I didn't engage with that line; she tasted and bought the honey.

That price was beyond most others at the time and sent out the message that local honey is a quality product that takes hard work (and to pay the mortgage). Once I'd ditched the one-pound jar (doubt anyone would hand over £12 for one of those) the price stayed in acceptable single figures. At that rate I can shift a ton or more a year and go to market every fortnight, all year round. Yes, I could sell it on at £3.50/lb and put my feet up, but I like meeting people and dealing with the end result of labour.
.

So from your part time beekeeping 70 colonies you produce what 2.5-3 ton annually and sell it for £60-70,000 before queen/nuc sales ? I wish part time work paid that well here .
Feel free to try that in N.Wales where there's regularly 30 miles between better class outlets and their max retail price would be £4 less than your wholesale price.

 

[For want of a better word]

So from your part time beekeeping 70 colonies you produce what 2.5-3 ton annually and sell it for £60-70,000 before queen/nuc sales ? I wish part time work paid that well here .
Feel free to try that in N.Wales where there's regularly 30 miles between better class outlets and their max retail price would be £4 less than your wholesale price.

Do Specsavers sell rose tinted spectacles?..............

 

[beebopper]

Do Specsavers sell rose tinted spectacles?..............

Why? Have you broken yours?

 

[ASPIRERITE]

Its quite simple no debate needed if your getting hives that swarm you have too many so go until you cant handle them then sell some and if you want rid fast Ill have them I have hives waiting