Man made v natural breeding and selection

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How long it takes in nature to evolve resistant bees.

You get a hint from Vladivostok direction. Varroa occupied western bee there about 100 years ago. If honeybee resistance evelopes, do evelopes varroa too.

A Japanese professor published oxalic acid fumidication recipe 1964. It is now 60 years ago. In 60 years varroa in Japan, and bees cannot evolve mite resistant .
 
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Evolution is continuous
You're sticking them in a box and feeding them then equating them to a wild creature best left to their own devices, delusional.
Try seeing how good your "blueprint"* is if you stop feeding, no less intrusive and prejudicial to survival of the fittest than varroa treatments.

You are right, evolution is continuous.

Feeding: that's exactly what I did for the first few years. I made them make all their own comb too, which is very often not the case in the wild.
Larger, earlier swarms tended to survive more often, as did cut-outs already equipped with wax, energy and brood. Which is exactly what you'd expect, and what happens in the wild. Its all about the energy - having it and keeping it. (I learned that keeping entrances very tight was helpful too.)

The later, and smaller, the swarm, the less likely it would build sufficiently to come through. And if weather was poor they would soon succumb - or more often shift to a hive with better prospects leaving a queen and an eggcup-full of dead bees behind.

You see I was experimenting all the time, to try to discover how to achieve my goal of having a stock of varroa-resistant colonies. I decided after not too many winters and losses, that it probably wasn't going to make too much difference to that goal if I helped - with what is, in effect, simply a good forage opportunity. With good mid late summer weather (and my location) many more swarms - and nucs - would come through, and so by feeding all I was really doing was giving them an artificial break. The important part is: if they can manage varroa they will live on: if they can't they will die later down the line. I still get the critical information, and the critical genes.

So feeding is not really an issue. And as, now, somebody dependent on honey sales for a livelihood, and given the toughness of the market, it is both necessary _and not harmful to my key aim of keeping my bees resistant to varroa- to take what I can, within limits, and give them syrup to overwinter on.

Do you see?

I'm I no way trying to block you posting or trying to shut down any conversations but if what I read from you or any other poster seems to me to be factually erroneous or misleading then it needs thrashing out.

That's fine. But tone matters. A rough tone puts your back up, and, worse, it encourages others to jump in. Before long you have one bloke trying to present a rational and well-founded case against what give every impression of being six or ten leery dolts.

To be taken seriously you may want to rethink posting such nonsense as you have about isolated mating in the vast wildernesses of Kent, you've amongst the highest density of bees in the country on your doorstep.
* the inverted commas imply acceptance it's not actually a blueprint but might as well be for the sake of this discussion.

Find any location in the North Downs AONB and take a close look on google maps. Now zoom in and count the number of houses in the villages. About 1/2 of this landscape is wooded or grassland valley; the other half rotates between grain, legumes and rape. Trust me, bee keepers are few, commercial beekeepers have better places to visit - apart from the rape, which, with our easterlies is usually poor, the honey from here is dark (the trees I think) and generally they want clear. They tend to work the orchards lower down along the A2, for pollination fees, and few move their hives.

Look at the attached map, look at the scale. Find a spot of your own and zoom in and count the houses. Bear in mind many are now second homes and out of towners.

Now read the abstract to this paper. https://repository.royalholloway.ac...5be407bf77/1/Jensen etal 2005 ConGenetics.pdf

And try to take on board: in towns, villages, churches, the odd tree, there are feral bees. Read what Randy wrote to me yesterday.

Read Manley on mating.

Cogitate.

You'll get there. 20 or 30 high drone producing hives, most genes coming down queenside, nucs made from best queens only, a feral (varroa resistant) population, and the measure of isolation you can achieve here is ample for this purpose. Don't forget I don't need all my matings to be top-notch.

You are stuck in the rut of the treating beekeepers narratives. They are wrong. There is ample documentation if you choose to look.

Don't take this the wrong way: I can show you; but I can't learn for you. You have to do the reading, thinking, enquiring. It takes time and effort, but you'll be wiser for it.

Good luck.
 

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Im sorry but this is has turned into a religious crusade and gone on for far too long.. [...]

It is good internet etiquette to simply ignore those things that do not interest you. It is appalling bad manners in any context to try to close down conversations others want to have.

Who brung you up?
 
Evolution is as long continuous, as it stops.

Those phrases do not help. You have just read, how much species are disapearing in these years. Everything is collapsing.

Screenshot_20220217-143411_Google.jpg
 
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I have difficulty in distinguishing fact, opinion, and belief from what has been presented thus far.

I do wonder what (Beesnaturally) those with a better understanding of the genetic influences suggested or hinted at, think about the notion of horizontal gene transfer providing evolutionary innovation in insects?
 
I have difficulty in distinguishing fact, opinion, and belief from what has been presented thus far.

I do wonder what (Beesnaturally) those with a better understanding of the genetic influences suggested or hinted at, think about the notion of horizontal gene transfer providing evolutionary innovation in insects?

I don't have a clue. Like I say I leave the details to the bees (or rather the local breeding population). I just do the husbandry side.

I have to say I find non-scientists messing about with scientific ideas can go a long way in terms of distracting attention from what matters. Its like you have to know how all the bits of a tv work before you can turn it on. You just need to be able to find the remote and press the right button.
 
I have to say I find non-scientists messing about with scientific ideas can go a long way in terms of distracting attention from what matters.

Where we need scientists or non-scientist, when natural evolution does the whole thing.

What if nature is on mite's side and evolution do worse mites, which will destroy all bees.
 
Can't happen, because the mite is a parasite, so it's depending on not killing it's own host. It's only doing it just now, outside Asia, because it's not endemic here
 
Can't happen, because the mite is a parasite, so it's depending on not killing it's own host. It's only doing it just now, outside Asia, because it's not endemic here

Wrong answer, totally. Like letter to Santa.
I have read about that parasite theory 20 years, the the outhors have not been the charpest pencils in penal.

If you think about other domestic animals, where the things has happened just like that. They have existed several thousands years, anf what about wild animals.
 
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This is a good starting point for those who are interested in the underlying science.

Some clues from early in the paper:

" ....the role of apiculture as another stressor has received far less attention, although management can severely compromise bee health. In particular, the role of common beekeeping practices in limiting natural selection as a potential major factor governing managed honeybee health has been completely ignored so far. This is kind of surprising, because it is well known that honeybees are more exposed to environmental stressors compared to other livestock. As natural selection is the key mechanism of evolution, it will enable any given stock of managed honeybees, irrespective of habitat (agro‐ecosystems, nature reserves, etc.) and/or genetic background (endemic, imported, “pure” breeding lines, hybrids [e.g., Buckfast], etc.) to adapt to each and every stressor as long as the ability to cope with the stressor has a genetic basis so that the respective heritable traits can change in this population over time. Although domestication always interferes by definition with natural selection and apicultural selection has existed for decades, if not centuries (Crane, 1999), we here argue that beekeeping interference with natural selection in combination with globalization of industrialized apiculture may have now reached levels, where ill effects are inevitable at the colony level. Such ill effects have previously and repeatedly been reported in populations of managed honeybees (see review by van Engelsdorp & Meixner, 2010), but the role of natural selection has not been considered in this regard."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5322407/
 
Where we need scientists or non-scientist, when natural evolution does the whole thing.

What if nature is on mite's side and evolution do worse mites, which will destroy all bees.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say - your English isn't great, and your thinking under-informed and muddled. You could usefully do some close study starting from my last post. Keep the link someplace safe so you can return, and keep going until you are quite sure you have a grip on it.

Knowing scientific words and phrases like 'natural selection', and having a vague idea of what they entail, is not the same thing as being well versed in the theory and the key mechanisms. You need that before you can apply it.
 
How far is mite resistant fox evolution in the world?

Mange disease in the picture. It was examined feral dogs in Mexico Yucatan. 34% had mites, and they had 3 different mite species.

Screenshot_20220217-172719_Google.jpg
 
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Mange disease had been described in Bibble 3200 years ago. It is in many mammals around the word.
What to do with varroa? Dogs have not eveloped resistancy against mange, even if it is a lethal disease. It is only human hope, that nature could generate resistancy to bees against varroa. Dogs have been with human perhaps 10,000 years. Europe has been with varroa 50 years.
 
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cant go against natural, its utopia ,natural wins at the end no matter what

cant just threat forever and ever nor can just go threatment free, cant get isolated in earth more with bees

i feel like trapped in a perpetual cycle

so

shouldn't be man made vs natural but man made breed/selection following natural resistance selection

shouldn't be just threat nor just let it die

shouldn't be individually anymore nor me against you but me with you against diseases following all one same health protocol on natural resistance bees purpose to provide and Q and drones resistance genetics so as noone worry about mate by using and threat when occasion requires it or when time is required avoid colony collapse giving time to other colony develop natural resistance

shouldn't ve ''capitalism'' and bees but maybe should think there be limits on colonies number a place can host or and a one beekeeper can hold, capacitor plays a part of its role and in my eyes a big one

shouldn't be old vs nub , shouldn't be commercial against hobbyist

shouldn't be am wrong you are right when its about health,virus and diseases cause hey we both wrong so far parasite has become stronger and stronger collaborate with virus no matter threat or not, cant we do the same ?collaborate alongside bees?(we can argue about all the other bees manipulations)

shouldn't compare elephants dogs lice or whatever to prove anything, none of them are bees act as bees and none of them parasite do as varroa do

shouldn't be a solution based on just numbers to believe or not and wont suit to all of us but hope ll suit on bees so someone needed to put a protocol on and sure thats not me !! are you?
 
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