killing queens?

[Little John]

So its best plan to have a new queen BEFORE removing the old one?

Yes, if a) you don't want a delay to occur whilst the colony are busy making a new queen, b) if there are no viable eggs in the cells, or c) if you don't want to gamble.


Whilst the new queen is being 'made', the colony is more-or-less 'on hold' - no new eggs are being laid etc - not an issue if you're keeping bees as pets, but not so good if you're in the honey business.

There won't be any viable eggs in the cells if the existing queen has turned drone-layer: a situation in which the whole colony is eventually destined for the mortuary, not just one bee - sensitive empathic beekeepers take note !

Gambling. So your colony makes itself a new queen - she's still got to get mated, which may not be easy if it's the wrong time of year, or if the weather is crap (like last year).

So - you can have either have a new proven mated queen ready to go before 'The Squish' - or you can take a gamble.

I know which I choose ...

LJ

 

[pargyle]

So its best plan to have a new queen BEFORE removing the old one?

There's a good page here which explains how and why very clearly. He's obviously buying in a new queens but it's just as possible to rear your own if you wish. Not difficult.

http://basicbeekeeping.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/lesson-95-when-to-replace-your-queen-in.html

 

[Walrus]

There won't be any viable eggs in the cells if the existing queen has turned drone-layer: a situation in which the whole colony is eventually destined for the mortuary, not just one bee - sensitive empathic beekeepers take note !

LJ

With a DLQ, is there a period when the queen is nearly out of stored sperm so she lays lots of drones but some workers? Or is it pretty well like turning a switch?

I thought the former would be the case & that maybe the bees would seize their last chance to supercede. Otherwise it's doomed without requeening, obviously.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Little John]

Well, I don't know for sure - but I agree, you'd have thought that they ought to realise that a problem exists, and act pretty smartly. More than a few days hesitation of course, and it would be too late.

But on the basis that some queens are allowed by the colony to continue laying drones only (and are thus sought-after by breeders who want large quantities of drones for saturating an area), I'd have thought that in practice the colony isn't always aware that a problem exists (if it's a sudden 'switch-off') - or is developing (if it's a gradual 'turn-off').

Bit of a design flaw there, methinks...

Just found a few sage words from Michael Bush:

Drone laying queens

* A late mated queen will turn into a drone layer. Basically she will only lay unfertilized eggs. Despite this the bees will try to build queen cells which will, of course, fail because they have drone eggs in them. The symptom is lots of drone brood but not a lot of multiple eggs in a cell.

Solution for Drone laying queen

* The easiest solution is to give them a frame of eggs. They will probably seize the opportunity you have now afforded, to supersede the old queen. If you can FIND the old queen and remove her before you do this, that’s fine, but a frame of brood will probably straighten things out. If it turns out it’s a laying worker it will just take two more frames a week apart.

Yet another very good reason for everyone having at least 2 colonies.

LJ

 

[sunhivebee]

Agreed. Keeping one colony only does not make much sense. Michael Bush's advice is spot-on, and works in quite a lot of cases, but not invariably. If it does not work, you have messed one of your viable colonies around by taking out broodcombs and then still have a problem, having wasted quite some time. I personally find it too much of a gamble.
In the case of a drone laying queen in a new colony (mating problems) I tend to not bother with the above procedure but turn the colony out, dust them with icing sugar and let them seek their fortunes joining another folk. In this way you have at least saved the actual bees. Far better than letting the doomed colony dwindle away, as they invariably wood, and in not too great a mood either.

 

[Sir Quej]

Yes, if a) you don't want a delay to occur whilst the colony are busy making a new queen, b) if there are no viable eggs in the cells, or c) if you don't want to gamble.


Whilst the new queen is being 'made', the colony is more-or-less 'on hold' - no new eggs are being laid etc - not an issue if you're keeping bees as pets, but not so good if you're in the honey business.

There won't be any viable eggs in the cells if the existing queen has turned drone-layer: a situation in which the whole colony is eventually destined for the mortuary, not just one bee - sensitive empathic beekeepers take note !

Gambling. So your colony makes itself a new queen - she's still got to get mated, which may not be easy if it's the wrong time of year, or if the weather is crap (like last year).

So - you can have either have a new proven mated queen ready to go before 'The Squish' - or you can take a gamble.

I know which I choose ...

LJ

Thanks LJ, very informative.

 

[Sir Quej]

Thanks Pargyle, I will check this page out.

 

[pargyle]

Agreed. Keeping one colony only does not make much sense. Michael Bush's advice is spot-on, and works in quite a lot of cases, but not invariably. If it does not work, you have messed one of your viable colonies around by taking out broodcombs and then still have a problem, having wasted quite some time. I personally find it too much of a gamble.
In the case of a drone laying queen in a new colony (mating problems) I tend to not bother with the above procedure but turn the colony out, dust them with icing sugar and let them seek their fortunes joining another folk. In this way you have at least saved the actual bees. Far better than letting the doomed colony dwindle away, as they invariably wood, and in not too great a mood either.

Hi Heidi, So you just take their hive away and let them/hope they find a way into one of your other hives ? Do they do this ?

 

[For want of a better word]

Solution for Drone laying queen

* The easiest solution is to give them a frame of eggs. They will probably seize the opportunity you have now afforded, to supersede the old queen. If you can FIND the old queen and remove her before you do this, that’s fine, but a frame of brood will probably straighten things out. If it turns out it’s a laying worker it will just take two more frames a week apart.


I have taken this one step further..

Sweep all the bees into a new box with new foundation, on old floor.
fix a queen excluder on top and put old box now empty of bees on top of this with a frame of eggs from another hive, feed 1:1 syrup.. bees will move up.. any workers will!
With some luck you can check 24 hour later in bottom box for DLQ, remove, remove qe and bottom box if you like.. all the drones will reunite.

This seems to work better ( for me ) than the shaking the bees into a bush. !!
No idea how this would work for the skeppists.. or even how they know
a DLQ present in the first place... no doubt someone will bee along in a moment to tell us all how?

 

[sunhivebee]

Hi Heidi, So you just take their hive away and let them/hope they find a way into one of your other hives ? Do they do this ?

Yes, but please remember, this occurs on rare occasions; one would hardly call a swarm with a drone laying queen a colony even, so what you have is a few thousand bees with no future. I have seen the sugar dusted bees go straight into another hive, and be accepted. Another possiblity is to combine them by the newspaper methods, but that usually results in some fighting. So I do not favour that much.

 

[sunhivebee]

Solution for Drone laying queen

* The easiest solution is to give them a frame of eggs. They will probably seize the opportunity you have now afforded, to supersede the old queen. If you can FIND the old queen and remove her before you do this, that’s fine, but a frame of brood will probably straighten things out. If it turns out it’s a laying worker it will just take two more frames a week apart.


I have taken this one step further..

Sweep all the bees into a new box with new foundation, on old floor.
fix a queen excluder on top and put old box now empty of bees on top of this with a frame of eggs from another hive, feed 1:1 syrup.. bees will move up.. any workers will!
With some luck you can check 24 hour later in bottom box for DLQ, remove, remove qe and bottom box if you like.. all the drones will reunite.

This seems to work better ( for me ) than the shaking the bees into a bush. !!
No idea how this would work for the skeppists.. or even how they know
a DLQ present in the first place... no doubt someone will bee along in a moment to tell us all how?

This sounds like a good method.
As to how this would work for the skeppist ... I have not had a chance to figure it out.
And how does the skeppist know about DLQ : perhaps by the same method as other beekeepers, there are numerous tell-tale signs, would you agree? I cannot speak of experience in the case of skep colonies, as those in skeps just go from strength to strength and DLQ have not occurred in seven years. Perhaps we are just lucky.

Those of us with experience of DLQs might now usefully discuss tell tale signs. In any colony, new or old, the temper of the colony changes for the worse. This is my first clue. Foraging observations follow. Internal inspection last.
Look forward to reading others' suggestions.

 

[masterBK]

Don't forget a colony with a drone laying queen is likely to have much higher numbers of Varroa so put the brood combs out for the birds and treat the workers with oxalic acid a day or so before shaking them out to join other colonies or (having removed the offending queen) uniting them to another colony

 

[Finman]

.
Drone laying queen. Absolutely that hive needs a new laying queen.
If you do not have such, join it.

If the hive has no brood, it has taken over a month that the hive revieles out that it has a drone layer. Then you start to rear there a new queen. It takes again one month that new queen starts to lay.

And from that it takes 3 weeks that new bees start to emerge.

Yes, count together what mean that the hive does not get new workers during two summer months.

.

 

[Finman]

Look forward to reading others' suggestions.

At least I have a clear concept what I do. I need not to go to internet and ask what now my brown cow.

.

 

[sunhivebee]

At least I have a clear concept what I do. I need not to go to internet and ask what now my brown cow.

.

Finman, that makes two of us! In my life too, I aim at clear concepts, but invariably find other people's way of doing things instructive and interesting. I do not call that relying on the internet! But maybe I misunderstood you.

 

[Hivemaker.]

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/sperm.html

http://www.extension.org/pages/28328/field-dissection-of-the-honey-bee-queen-spermatheca

 

[Finman]

.
That I have never done that I inspect the spermatecha. Does it help?

 

[Hivemaker.]

If a variable brood pattern is observed,some drone, few normal worker and some neglected brood in worker cells, then there could well be two queens in the hive, often the old marked or clipped queen is killed thinking she is failing,only to find it is a young supersedure queen that is at fault,and the old queen was still okay...but you killed her.

 

[Finman]

When I use clipped wings, quite much old queens die into lawn after swarming trial.
Old queen is valuble in swarming time because it needs to lay bees for main yield period. So it is better make false swarm before the queen vanishes into the lawn.

If the queen shows som weakness in her job, I change it quite quickly. I try to keep spare queen for that.

I do not mind about supercede queens because they are not selected by me.
Superceding means that the queen has problems and and I do not want problem daughters.

Over winter I have had 20% spare hives and they compensate all troubles. It had worked fine: drone layers, nosema problems, angry hives, chalk brood, poor laying, poor brood pattern, some problem in legs or in antenna.

I try to select those in summer but something appers in spring too.

Yes, during every summer I must kill about 50 queens. I have never counted. However much more than I have hives.


.

 

[Walrus]

Sweep all the bees into a new box with new foundation, on old floor.
fix a queen excluder on top and put old box now empty of bees on top of this with a frame of eggs from another hive, feed 1:1 syrup.. bees will move up.. any workers will!
With some luck you can check 24 hour later in bottom box for DLQ, remove, remove qe and bottom box if you like.. all the drones will reunite.

Thanks for that; very neat