Keld Brandstrup

[Norton]

Originally Posted by Hivemaker. Brother Adam.

A public statement has been made about which there is considerable doubt and that it is misleading. Hivemaker has been asked by another respected member to prove his declaration. I am sure that a number of other members are interested in a presentation of proof and a clarification of this.

 

[Hivemaker.]

It would be better to private message him.

This is the best way to find out.

 

[B+.]

This is the best way to find out.

Is it a secret? A pedigree without test results is only part of the picture anyway.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

A public statement has been made about which there is considerable doubt and that it is misleading. Hivemaker has been asked by another respected member to prove his declaration. I am sure that a number of other members are interested in a presentation of proof and a clarification of this.

Would you care to explain just which public statement or request to prove a declaration you refer to? I've skimmed this thread and can't see anything to fit your message. (unless it's time for a visit to specsavers)

 

[Finman]

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Seems police case to me

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[B+.]

Would you care to explain just which public statement or request to prove a declaration you refer to? I've skimmed this thread and can't see anything to fit your message. (unless it's time for a visit to specsavers)

Carsten asked to see HM's pedigrees in post 58. It would be nice to see what, if any, progress has been made but this depends on test results, not just the pedigree.
I know I keep banging the drum, but, this is why we need objective data to guide our breeding work. Rearing a bunch of queens, even on a "secluded" site, is not going to cut it without the proof that an improvement is made.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Some is not. Whats wrong with swiping their better ideas? ;-)

Whatever happened to the move to drive on the right hand side of the road.... one reason put in by the Vote No brigade when we joined the EU in the first place.... and of course moving the Meridian to pass through Paris?

.... better ideas ?

Myttin da

Reminds me of the old story (it might have been from a Dave Allen show) where Ireland was going to get all the cars and taxis to drive on the right for a week to test reaction. If it worked out the next week would see the buses and lorries also change over.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Carsten asked to see HM's pedigrees in post 58. It would be nice to see what, if any, progress has been made but this depends on test results, not just the pedigree.
I know I keep banging the drum, but, this is why we need objective data to guide our breeding work. Rearing a bunch of queens, even on a "secluded" site, is not going to cut it without the proof that an improvement is made.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure HM can trace his family tree

 

[B+.]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure HM can trace his family tree

I've never understood why there are no pedigrees from UK Buckfast breeders in the European Buckfast Bee Breeders site (http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/index.html#paysGB). Whats the big mystery about pedigrees?

 

[For want of a better word]

Could you please specify? I would love to see your pedigree.

As the executioner said to Charles 1st............

Civil wars are not civil it seems.

Meaning: pedigree means little in beekeeping terms in the UK.

Myttin da

 

[B+.]

Meaning: pedigree means little in beekeeping terms.

Wow! I can't believe you said that!
There would be no point in doing any tests at all if you didn't have a pedigree as you couldn't trace the heritability of traits. Perhaps this is why there are no UK breeders in the database?
There is also the question of objectivity. How much confidence can you have in someones results if nobody else tests them? I have to test at least 1/3 from other Beebreed breeders to verify that their results are reliable. This stops them from being mere anecdotes.

 

[Chrisfnvs]

This is the best way to find out.

Why the big secret Hivemaker ? i would have thought adopting a position of cooperation and sharing would be better if we want to have some sort of organised Queen breeding in the UK.

 

[For want of a better word]

Wow! I can't believe you said that!
There would be no point in doing any tests at all if you didn't have a pedigree as you couldn't trace the heritability of traits. Perhaps this is why there are no UK breeders in the database?
There is also the question of objectivity. How much confidence can you have in someones results if nobody else tests them? I have to test at least 1/3 from other Beebreed breeders to verify that their results are reliable. This stops them from being mere anecdotes.

I have added in the UK!

I can only comment that the dog breeding selection of Traits... by doggie breeders that have supposed to know what the "breed" should look like... has lead to dogs that are deaf... can not breathe or even manage to walk

I forgot... bees are insects!

Tin hat at the ready!

Myttin da

 

[Finman]

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I do not need any pedigrees. I buy some queens and try what they are compared to my recent queens. After couple of generations there is no pedigree then.

The difference of bees are not so incredible different, that you need pedigree for your 1000 hives.

After all it is pastures, which give the result. If you do not have pastures, how can you keep bees.

I test the queens, what I buy. I do not trust on professional beekeepers. They are not among the most honest humans in the world. That is my 54 years experience about beekeeping.

As said before, top professional beekeepers do not use anti varroa bees.
20 years' breeding of anti varroa bees has led in USA to the situation, that dead rate level of hives is about 40%.

That can be seen in several reports of the year 2016.



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[Carsten]

As the executioner said to Charles 1st............

Civil wars are not civil it seems.

Meaning: pedigree means little in beekeeping terms.

Myttin da

True, but I am an 'Old Buckfast' collector/hobbyist and Queen breeder - and interested in/researching all existing lines left . Pedigree is only way to keep track. There were no ulterior motives in my question to Hivemaker. Sorry
http://perso.unamur.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/pedgr/ped_CD_2016.html

 

[For want of a better word]

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I do not need any pedigrees. I buy some queens and try what they are compared to my recent queens. After couple of generations there is no pedigree then.

The difference of bees are not so incredible different, that you need pedigree for your 1000 hives.

After all it is pastures, which give the result. If you do not have pastures, how can you keep bees.

I test the queens, what I buy. I do not trust on professional beekeepers. They are not among the most honest humans in the world. That is my 54 years experience about beekeeping.

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I have to say that I agree... pastures and forage make all the difference... as I can not buy or import a bee from a breeder that suit my specific environmental conditions... I select and breed my own... I have records for my own use.... it is called Bee Improvement..................................... we even have a club in the UK for those with similar interests........................ Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association ( BIBBA) !!

Myttin da

 

[Little John]

I think it might be useful to remember that BA didn't actually 'breed' the first Buckfast bee - it resulted from a chance mating, which he then went on to rear other queens from. At that point he wasn't 'breeding' at all. That came shortly afterwards.

Likewise, the widespread belief that he toured the world in order to incorporate exotic genetic strains into the Buckfast is also incorrect - those were for experimental purposes only.

The Buckfast bee is a cross between the native British and the Italian bee; this cross was produced thirty-five years ago, shortly before the native bee was exterminated by acarine disease. In the meantime no fresh blood has been introduced into the strain, except for experimental purposes.
Brother Adam (1950) http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/FAmethBW50en.html

I think that article makes for great reading - and it shows that with the right site, effective open mating is perfectly feasible, providing that enough effort is invested in the enterprise.
LJ

 

[B+.]

Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association ( BIBBA) !!

A bit but, nevertheless, I will address this.

My experience of BIBBA was that they were only interested in you if you agreed with their views. They were quite hostile to me as a carnica breeder....so, I left.

 

[For want of a better word]

A bit but, nevertheless, I will address this.

My experience of BIBBA was that they were only interested in you if you agreed with their views. They were quite hostile to me as a carnica breeder....so, I left.

Possibly ... but to be fair... BIBBA has a main interest in the Native honey bee to the British Isles.... says so in the mission statement!

Myttin da

 

[Carsten]

I think it might be useful to remember that BA didn't actually 'breed' the first Buckfast bee - it resulted from a chance mating, which he then went on to rear other queens from. At that point he wasn't 'breeding' at all. That came shortly afterwards.

Likewise, the widespread belief that he toured the world in order to incorporate exotic genetic strains into the Buckfast is also incorrect - those were for experimental purposes only.


I think that article makes for great reading - and it shows that with the right site, effective open mating is perfectly feasible, providing that enough effort is invested in the enterprise.
LJ

New breeds was imported and after 1950. This is the most important: Anatolica

1962-A416 x B436: .Sinop

Gene bank and carrier of the old Buckfast genes - back to 1920.

Brother Adams head line. The most dominant pedigree - drone and queen line - ever known to the world.

Sublines and hybrids are spread all over