Keld Brandstrup

[B+.]

Possibly ... but to be fair... BIBBA has a main interest in the Native honey bee to the British Isles.... says so in the mission statement!

Myttin da

Perhaps I was naive to believe they represented all bee breeders in these British Isles then. Happily, that was a mistake I could correct.

 

[mbc]

I sometimes get asked for pedigrees of my bees, but as all the maternal lines come from local stock and they're all open mated, providing someone with information like "she's from line c6 mated at site z" is utterly meaningless to anyone else.
This doesn't devalue the queens in my opinion, to paraphrase Finman the proof is in the pudding.
Judging other breeding efforts by the standards adopted by this carnica group is futile as anything other than an exercise in one upmanship, adopting foreign bees and protocols is pointless in this case unless you envisage a one world order of carnica beekeeping over our islands, otherwise it's a selfish exercise in high maintenance bees for the individual while continuing to mix the gene pool for the rest.
Saying that it would be nice to have the resources available to engage in some serious cooperative breeding here in the uk and Ireland.

 

[mbc]

A bit but, nevertheless, I will address this.

My experience of BIBBA was that they were only interested in you if you agreed with their views. They were quite hostile to me as a carnica breeder....so, I left.

Are you quite sure this was due to you being a carnica follower, your posts can come across as belligerent, maybe it was a personality thing?

 

[B+.]

Are you quite sure this was due to you being a carnica follower, your posts can come across as belligerent, maybe it was a personality thing?

Not at all mbc. I am actually quite a nice guy

I can only assume that your view is shaped by the way we communicate on here (written text). Please don't misinterpret my drive to get to the heart of what someone is saying for a disagreement with it. This is often not the case. I just don't like anecdotes that aren't substantiated.

 

[Little John]

New breeds was imported and after 1950. This is the most important: Anatolica

35 years unchanged - and with a proven track record - why on earth change anything ? Was there a problem with the existing stock ?

If not, then the old saying: "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" comes to mind. (Speaking as one who thinks that 'improvement' is a very dubious concept.)
LJ

 

[mbc]

. I just don't like anecdotes that aren't substantiated.

Beekeeping is a finger dipped into the natural world and the majority of experience in it with its infinite variables can only be recounted by unsubstantiated anecdotes, unless at the top end of academic research, which none of us here are.

 

[mbc]

35 years unchanged - and with a proven track record - why on earth change anything ? Was there a problem with the existing stock ?

If not, then the old saying: "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" comes to mind. (Speaking as one who thinks that 'improvement' is a very dubious concept.)
LJ

Nothing stands still, there is the "red queen theory" where biological beings race like hell to remain apparently stationary as all the competition, predators and parasites do the same.

 

[For want of a better word]

I think that article makes for great reading - and it shows that with the right site, effective open mating is perfectly feasible, providing that enough effort is invested in the enterprise.
LJ

Seems to be working for our Cornish Black Native bee breeding programme... with drone flooding and the respect from all of the beekeepers in the area not bringing in or importing bees.
We have a record of queens that are selected.... no disrespect for out German beebreeders who like to have every i dotted and t crossed
( I was going to say ship shape and Bristol fashon,,, but did not want to start yet another pointless argument)

Yeghes da

 

[Little John]

Nothing stands still, there is the "red queen theory" where biological beings race like hell to remain apparently stationary as all the competition, predators and parasites do the same.

Absolutely agree - so then why do some many people want to revive a strain of bee from the past, and yet others want to preserve another strain at some arbitrary moment in it's evolution. Isn't that what breeders do ? Or engage in some 'improvement' or other, defined not by evolutionary survival ability, but rather by some unnatural measure which suits human interests, such as an abnormally large honey yield ?
LJ

 

[mbc]

Absolutely agree - so then why do some many people want to revive a strain of bee from the past, and yet others want to preserve another strain at some arbitrary moment in it's evolution. Isn't that what breeders do ? Or engage in some 'improvement' or other, defined not by evolutionary survival ability, but rather by some unnatural measure which suits human interests, such as an increased honey yield ?
LJ

Revive a strain of bee from the past?!
No, this isn't jurassic park, it's about keeping bees we enjoy keeping and hopefully leaving a legacy to those who come after us of bees and countryside they can enjoy too. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[B+.]

it's about keeping bees we enjoy keeping and hopefully leaving a legacy to those who come after us of bees and countryside they can enjoy too. That's how I see it anyway.

Me too.

 

[For want of a better word]

Absolutely agree - so then why do some many people want to revive a strain of bee from the past, and yet others want to preserve another strain at some arbitrary moment in it's evolution. Isn't that what breeders do ? Or engage in some 'improvement' or other, defined not by evolutionary survival ability, but rather by some unnatural measure which suits human interests, such as an abnormally large honey yield ?
LJ

I do not think for one moment that man can stop evolution.

As in isolated areas of the UK the Native bee has survived despite introgression form foreign sub species... probably 10000 years of evolutionary selection... survival of the fittest..... even if the foreign bees can produce tons of honey in a good year, as with the last season they produce little in a bad one!
I suppose to the purist even the beekeeper using Native bees and selecting for traits that suit the beekeeper, is in fact messing about with nature.....
but it is too damn cold here to run around in loin cloths climbing trees to get honey!!

But in the short term geologically speaking mankind has caused the extinction of many species by destruction of their environment.
Absolutely nothing wrong with restoration ecology...... as the planet will only survive if mankind keeps a healthy genetic diversity of species and ceases this endless destruction of habitat.

Suggest you read Silent Spring by Rachel Carson instead of reading long lists of Tutonic bee genealogy!

Myttin da

 

[Finman]

.
I have kept lots of races and breeds. Black bee, Caucasian, Caucasian x Blackbees, Carniolan, Elgon, Buckfast, loncest time Italians , Superbees, Forest Carniolans.

Carniolans came from Central Europe during 10 years. Some were splended, but mostly rubbish. And guys report in these days that they start to swarm before summer.

Italian breeds are tens what I have had.


But all together, all stocks will be ruined in inbreeding. It takes 5 years and it it finish. I have only 20-30 hives. That number cannot maintain special features, like pure, and hybrids are absolutely best honey collectors.

But I go with these....

Black bee mongrels were bad 30 years ago. But now wild Carniolans are bad. They do not sting, but they do not like to stay in their hives. Always going to somewhere else
.

 

[Finman]

I do not think for one moment that man can stop evolution.

Suggest you read Silent Spring by Rachel Carson instead of reading long lists of Tutonic bee genealogy!

Myttin da

When I read Silent Spring few years ago, I was surprised how the author read researched facts and drew conclusions.

Now, when I read "vanishing bees" , the authors do not mind about facts. They have opinions. Harmageddon is coming. That is the marketing gap of the prophets.

But the future of bee evolution in the UK. It belongs to mongrels now and in future . Vain to measure wing veins.
,

 

[Little John]

I do not think for one moment that man can stop evolution.

As in isolated areas of the UK the Native bee has survived despite introgression form foreign sub species...

If that is so - then where's the problem ? If they've survived so well despite introgression, then surely they don't require such a concerted effort now by concerned human beings ...

Absolutely nothing wrong with restoration ecology...... as the planet will only survive if mankind keeps a healthy genetic diversity of species and ceases this endless destruction of habitat.

But - as I understand it - you're talking about restoring a species into a changed environment - which is why mammoths, bears etc wouldn't survive in today's environment. There is currently talk of restoring wolves into Britain - in a niche area it might work, but otherwise a little foolish I think - unless it can be shown there are benefits - like controlling rabbits etc.

In the case of 'restoring' AMM - in a relatively isolated peninsular I don't see any problems, but attempts at restoration as the principle bee-type throughout the mainland has to be a non-starter, precisely because the environment has changed so much since the 1920's.

Now the environment consists of thousands of apiaries containing other bee-types which didn't exist in such numbers back in 1920. Sure, you can argue things ought to be different than that, but they're not. In any plans for the future, it's necessary to start from where we actually are now, rather than where we 'ought' to be. That is why I consider AMM to be a bee from the past (as far as the mainland is concerned).

Suggest you read Silent Spring by Rachel Carson instead of reading long lists of Tutonic bee genealogy!

Well - I don't read the latter, and see no reason to read the former. Last time someone suggested I read a book of their choice, it was The (Christian) Bible - or rather the King James version of that book. Interesting that - a King of England (and Scotland ... big hint) endorsing a particular version. Something to do with having an agenda, I think, which applies to the authors and editors of so many books.
LJ

 

[For want of a better word]

Little John
you are so much like the man down the pub, funny.. but we call him Friar Tuck..

your adversary in the river crossing scene from Robin Hood the film!!

( Balding and a bit on the portly side)

Yeghes da

 

[wightbees]

It's big cats I read that might be reintroduce LJ , can't Remember which ones but they where once here I read. Lynx

 

[Finman]

.
Wolves in Britain....

They like to eate dogs. You have them plenty.

 

[For want of a better word]

.
Wolves in Britain....

They like to eate dogs. You have them plenty.

And cats... they are going to release them on the wilds of Exmoor to keep the ponies in check!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

Judging other breeding efforts by the standards adopted by this carnica group is futile as anything other than an exercise in one upmanship, adopting foreign bees and protocols is pointless in this case unless you envisage a one world order of carnica beekeeping over our islands, otherwise it's a selfish exercise in high maintenance bees for the individual while continuing to mix the gene pool for the rest.

Are you quite sure this was due to you being a carnica follower, your posts can come across as belligerent, maybe it was a personality thing?

...and I'm the belligerent one?

The methods I've talked about are described in Coloss (http://coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing/3) as standards to which all scientific examinations should adhere so that results can be compared and contrasted. What else would you have me use?