Keld Brandstrup

[B+.]

Please read the thread! She is not open mated..

I think they are referring to her daughters nantmoel.
Any daughter queens you raise would mate with whatever drones they found in your area (unless you plan to control the mating somehow). This would have unpredictable results

 

[nantmoel]

I think they are referring to her daughters nantmoel.
Any daughter queens you raise would mate with whatever drones they found in your area (unless you plan to control the mating somehow). This would have unpredictable results

I have a new apiary, its quiet isolated so I intend to use a particular drone line, I know I cannot guarantee a 'controlled mating' but all hives (8) will contain daughter queens.

I now await the flack!

 

[B+.]

I have a new apiary, its quiet isolated so I intend to use a particular drone line, I know I cannot guarantee a 'controlled mating' but all hives (8) will contain daughter queens.

It is very difficult to find somewhere in this country that is "bee free" within the flight range of virgin queens and drones. That is why I keep going on about island mating stations and instrumental insemination.
You might try a number of virgin queens on the site, just to see how isolated it really is before you commit to using it as a proper mating site. If they remain unmated, you have potentially good site (although this can change from year to year as other beekeepers move their hives around).

 

[For want of a better word]

It is very difficult to find somewhere in this country that is "bee free" within the flight range of virgin queens and drones. That is why I keep going on about island mating stations and instrumental insemination.
You might try a number of virgin queens on the site, just to see how isolated it really is before you commit to using it as a proper mating site. If they remain unmated, you have potentially good site (although this can change from year to year as other beekeepers move their hives around).

It would be nice is some of the more belligerent beekeepers would be considerate enough to respect the flight zones of other ( like B+ et al ) beekeepers attempts at isolated mating by drone flooding.
I believe that HM tested one isolated site on Dartmoor where BA carried out some of his isolated mating experiments..... no queens got mated.

I can not understand why the BBKA print a request not to import bees into the UK... when often on the same page there are huge adverts for Danish bees from Denmark!



Gool Piran Lowen

 

[Beefriendly]

I can not understand why the BBKA print a request not to import bees into the UK... when often on the same page there are huge adverts for Danish bees from Denmark!

Whose advertising those Ican?
In a quick scan I can't find any huge ( or small) advertisements for Danish Bees.

 

[B+.]

It would be nice is some of the more belligerent beekeepers would be considerate enough to respect the flight zones of other ( like B+ et al ) beekeepers attempts at isolated mating by drone flooding.
n

I came to terms with the fact that open mating in this country is a non-starter a long time ago.
I do raise some open mated queens but these don't even appear in my stockbook. They are used for other purposes

 

[mbc]

I came to terms with the fact that open mating in this country is a non-starter a long time ago.
I do raise some open mated queens but these don't even appear in my stockbook. They are used for other purposes

Mmmh, let the bees tell you.
If you cannot open mate your chosen queens with any confidence you're going to get some improvements you can work with then maybe you're choosing the wrong bees?!

 

[nantmoel]

I came to terms with the fact that open mating in this country is a non-starter a long time ago.
I do raise some open mated queens but these don't even appear in my stockbook. They are used for other purposes

We have remote locations here in Wales, but it really would take an organised group like you see in various countries (Germany, Denmark etc.) to control the drone lines. Beekeepers who are members of the group then take virgins to the location for mating.

For the number of queens we need each year, I'm happy to go alone the lines I am at the moment. II is an expense that would be hard to justify.

 

[B+.]

Mmmh, let the bees tell you.
If you cannot open mate your chosen queens with any confidence you're going to get some improvements you can work with then maybe you're choosing the wrong bees?!

OMG...is there no end to this? Give it a rest won't you?

If you have something special, why would you dilute it with local rubbish? Br Adam didn't do that...so why are you quoting him?

 

[Beefriendly]

Open mating's with no control over drone lineages are like tossing a coin and hoping for heads to fall face up 30x in a row. Pointless if you want to make serious improvements.

 

[mbc]

OMG...is there no end to this? Give it a rest won't you?

If you have something special, why would you dilute it with local rubbish? Br Adam didn't do that...so why are you quoting him?

Give it a rest?!! Why would I?
You're promoting something essentially unsustainable and judging others for not coming up to standards alien to this country, I think a counter argument should be presented.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Give it a rest?!! Why would I?
You're promoting something essentially unsustainable and judging others for not coming up to standards alien to this country, I think a counter argument should be presented.

It's not really unsustainable though is it, put aside the fact that b+ is working with foreign genetics. Assuming I could get a super well bred amm queen (which wouldn't be easy) her daughters will just regress back to the same swarmy aggressive bee that predominates in my area no matter what I do if I open mate them. How is that any different?

 

[mbc]

It's not really unsustainable though is it, put aside the fact that b+ is working with foreign genetics. Assuming I could get a super well bred amm queen (which wouldn't be easy) her daughters will just regress back to the same swarmy aggressive bee that predominates in my area no matter what I do if I open mate them. How is that any different?

Well it does depend on a few assumptions, the most ubiquitous genes in the general population being amm and that like like matings provide a more steady outcome with no f1 vigour from cross matings.
Background populations have been known to improve after sustained efforts by groups of beekeepers to raise the bar but I've not heard of that happening when the bees they're trying to improve are a different subspecies to what's already there.
ITLD with his thousands of colonies asserts that his baught in carnies revert to close to the locals within a few generations.

 

[B+.]

Give it a rest?!! Why would I?
You're promoting something essentially unsustainable and judging others for not coming up to standards alien to this country, I think a counter argument should be presented.

It works very well in other countries. What you're suggesting is that we bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything is rosy. Clearly, it isn't.
I want the very best bees that are available (and, I believe others do too). I'm not happy with 20Kg yields when prices of beekeeping equipment are going through the roof. That is unsustainable! If that is all the local bees can do, then IMHO they really need improving

 

[REDWOOD]

I'll buy a virgin from you, just interested what my drones will produce, not knowing or finding out is part of the fun


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[REDWOOD]

I do know another Welsh bee breeder who uses these queens and open mates them successfully and will produce lots of nice honey


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[B+.]

I'll buy a virgin from you, just interested what my drones will produce, not knowing or finding out is part of the fun

The drones would be the same as the mother. The female progeny would be a combination of the mother and whatever drones she mated with. This is true no-matter what race you start with

 

[Beefriendly]

.
Background populations have been known to improve after sustained efforts by groups of beekeepers to raise the bar but I've not heard of that happening when the bees they're trying to improve are a different subspecies to what's already there.

It is highly unlikely to happen with different subspecies in the UK that are open mated. Something to do with the local drones eventually bringing everything down to their level.
I don't see using different sub-species as being mutually incompatible, but open mating's for different sub-species is a big no no.
Open mating's are fine if you want to keep propagating your local mongrel population, but with no control over drones you are beating your head against the proverbial if you want to implement major improvements.

 

[REDWOOD]

I know. I have a good gene pool in my apiary


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[Swarm]

It works very well in other countries. What you're suggesting is that we bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything is rosy. Clearly, it isn't.
I want the very best bees that are available (and, I believe others do too). I'm not happy with 20Kg yields when prices of beekeeping equipment are going through the roof. That is unsustainable! If that is all the local bees can do, then IMHO they really need improving

Maybe it works well in other countries because they are the 'local' bee in those countries?
Far from burying heads in the sand, the idea of working with and improving native stock always seems to be overlooked. Maybe it's just easier to buy a queen from a source that has many years of work behind it? I tend to think that it's this lazy approach that adds to the problem, with drones from the next batch of nucs or queens from who knows where appearing every season. The local bees that you despise are getting a fair share of input from your bees.
Native bees really do need improving and working with them would be a great start IMO.