Inverted sugar syrup? Anyone tried it?

[Finman]

hey finman that looks like some interesting reading always happy to be enlightened. is there any similar information for the european climate as the australian one is just a little bit different

This issue has nothing to do with climate. What is European climate?

 

[newportbuzz]

correct me if im wrong but arnt the Auz bees the "apis mellifera linnaeus" italian subspecies rather than the "apis mellifera mellifera" black bee which i have so i thought there might be different nutritional needs . With regards climate some of australia is similar to europe but most of the pollen sorces must be difernet

 

[Finman]

Apies mellifera races have all same nutrinitional demands when we talk what means ordinary sugar and different pollen to them.

Now the question is: is usual sugar good for bees and answer is: its is second best after honey and it does not need any chemical treatments.

Difference in nutrinitional demands is - what I have met- how much the hive collect pollen storen for spring. Italians tend to use them all in Autumn and Carnica has good stores for spring. With that pollen store it gets an early start.

 

[itma]

Having searched about, this seems the most appropriate thread to revive!
Unfortunately, the thread itself isn't terribly helpful or to the point.
I wonder if it can be made valuable.

I am very experienced and I have read all honey bee nutrition researches from interenet. And I can tell you that David Cramps formula is totally nonsence. I havé never seen that kind of carbage!

Just now I have dried yeast 70 kg but I use it only in spring.
...

Actually, bakers' yeast is one source of the enzyme Invertase, so Cramp's recipe definitely is not "carbage".
Its not about feeding yeast to bees, its about using a trace of yeast to invert some sucrose in the feed syrup.





I gather that Ambrosia (commercial invert syrup for bees) is considered by many to be worth the money because they believe its better than straight sugar syrup, particularly as an Autumn feed.

Without arguing that invert/straight syrup point, could we discuss the practicalities of making invert syrup (for bees) in the domestic kitchen?
If we accept for the moment that some folk might want to use domestic quantities of invert syrup, what would be the best way of making it?
Or to put it another way, how would you homebrew an Ambrosia-substitute?

I know of three inversion methods:

1. Warm syrup, on its own, does get some inversion (by hydrolysis?). But not very much. I think that 30/35C for maybe an hour is spoken of.
Much higher temperatures are used in the production of Fondant, which, yes, is going to be part-inverted, and thus sticky and resisting complete drying-out.
What temperature (and time) is best for hydrolysis of strong 2:1 syrup?
How much inversion would that give? And how would that compare to Ambrosia?

2. The amount of inversion (and unfortunately HMF) can be increased by adding a very little dilute acid (less than a teaspoon per litre?) and increasing the temperature to 50/60C.
Citric acid (in lemon juice) and Tartaric acid (from Cream of Tartar rather than vintage wine) seem to be the most common acids used.
I know HMF in honey for sale is ungood, but less harmful than eating caramel sweeties... however for an Autumn (and possibly Thymolated) feed this syrup shouldn't be contaminating any honey-product, so any Trading Standards issue would be a non-starter.
The interesting question is whether anyone has actually seen (or not seen) any harm to their bees from using such dilute-acid inverted syrup? (Any direct experience, rather than 'internet lore'?)
AFAIK, acid inversion of bee syrup used to be quite standard, without harming bees. Have the bees been reading the internet? (We know they don't read the standard books...)
My suspicion would be that the benefit from inversion would outweigh any HMF detriment.
But any detriment from HMF would make a lower-HMF inversion method 'better'.

3. Enzyme inversion seems to offer the likeliest possibility of significant inversion with minimal risk. Cramp's recipe holds the syrup for at least 2 hours at enzyme-active temperature (45 to 55C). This is followed by heating to a temperature (65C) that should kill any residual yeast (thereby reducing fermentation problems).
I'd guess that adding Thymol (and Lecithin following Hivemaker's recipe) would also help to minimise fermentation problems.
Invertase can be bought. (Sources?) Its used by confectioners, and (working quietly in the packet) is what makes chocolate centres "soft".
My impression is that its expensive, and while you only need a tiny amount, its sold in 'commercial' quantities - making it an investment!

Are there other, (cheap, home-practical) methods available?
Overall, the yeast route looks the most favourable to me, but it doesn't seem to have been much discussed here.
Opinions please! (And particularly on how, rather than whether!)

 

[Hivemaker.]

I'd guess that adding Thymol (and Lecithin following Hivemaker's recipe) would also help to minimise fermentation problems.

Yes,unlikely to ever ferment,and especially good for late feeding, for the same reason.

 

[newportbuzz]

nice to see this nugget pop up again
i am now in my second year and have now used both the invert syrup (david cramp) and the normal syrup.
i have noticed two diferences but they are not huge
1 the taste. the invert tastes sweeter and less sharp if that makes sense
2 the bees seem to take down the invert syrup faster

i went into last winter with 3 colonys 1 strong and two weak ones, one with a new queen september and a long broodless period 6 weeks + and the other with the hive i was weakening to keep the other strong.
i lost both of these hives over the winter one to unknown reasons moving onto laying workers and the other to drone laying queen.
The remaining hive went to double brood early spring and was split 5 ways.
other than the high loses through winter on unrelated things i was happy to have used the invert syrup but have to say it was a lot of extra work and havnt bothered repeating it this year. I will see how my overwintering experiance goes this year .
hope this helps someone out

 

[itma]

...
i have noticed two diferences but they are not huge
1 the taste. the invert tastes sweeter and less sharp if that makes sense
2 the bees seem to take down the invert syrup faster

Am I right in thinking that this (less bee-processing needed, so faster stores build-up possible) should be the principal benefit to the hobby beekeeper with a weak and/or low-stores colony?
The taste difference shows that you did produce invert syrup, btw!

...
i lost both of these hives over the winter one to unknown reasons moving onto laying workers and the other to drone laying queen.
...

But the third hive (on the exact same feed syrup?) was fine?

Is there any way that these misfortunes could be blamed on some sort of contamination in the feed?
Presumably the syrup never went above 65C, so HMF formation should have been minimal ... ?

 

[newportbuzz]

the 3rd hive was fine and built up very well as i said she went to double brood and split 5 ways and she is now on the heather with a full brood again and starting on her 3rd super of the year.

the other two really stumped me but i put there demise down to my attemt to save a hopeless case. i have since learnt a lot and wont be making that mistake again soon.
they both went to winter in a sorry state and on winter oxalic treatement one of the hives droped over 1000 mites from 4 frames of bees. the other had minimal drop but only 6 frames of bees the first hive was on brood and a half and had 9 frames of bees and similar in the half also minimal varroa drop. so i put one down to varroa due to inexperiance and weak to boot and the other to weak and attempted supercedure shortly after introduction which resulted in drone laying queen. all in all a very messy learniong curve. still we live we learn

 

[markrogers]

invert sugar with invertase

itma

i agree that using invertase (also called sucrase) appears to be the best solution.

my research backs up what you say about the bakers yeast supplying the enzyme. the 2 products i have located both say the enzyme is manufactured from yeast.

i have only managed to locate large quantities of enzyme at present but am persevering.

there is alot of debate about whether honey, sugar or inverted sugar is best. i am a new beek so have very little experience with bees but i a have alot of experience with livestock feeding and the science behind it.

my hunch based on the evidence i have read (not practical experience yet) would be that inverted sugar (produced with enzymes) would be better than straight sugar syrup.

cost will of course come into it. that is why i hope to do my own trials with home made enzyme produced invert sugar.

does anyone know anybody who is doing this on a private level?

mark

mark

 

[MuswellMetro]

i am trying inverted sugar for the first time this year, My BKA purchases it in bulk pallet and i know Ealing BKA do the same

it works out about £13:15 for a 12,5kg jerry Can which is about 11kg of sugar equivlanet

at £13.15 it is rather cheaper than beekeeping retailers supply it and i am using it as i can no longer be bothered to go to a the cash and carry and mix up sugar for mutliple hives, one hive no problem, 5 hives a pain, more than 15 no way,

you all know the route we go down at BOOKERS cash and carry ,rejoin because my card is a year old, argue with the new manger that BBKA have a special customer deal, fill the boot with sugar, clean the boot out of loose sugar, do it again for more sugar ,dissolve it, sterilize old jerry can, clean the kitchen again again again again etc

so it was two trips to collect the syrup and all seemed to be going great, until i clipped a curb and burst a tyre.....so add £200 quid to the syrup bill for two new tyres,( the other was old but past MOT) tracking

 

[WaxManSmokerBoy]

I find that sugar syrup inverted with the addition of citric acid is not only sweeter, but has a brighter finish to it.

The advantage of invert sugar is that it is more readily taken down by the bees in cooler temperatures and so can be fed successfully a little later in the year than straight sugar syrup.

I'm not sure if the toxicity problem (mentioned by Dave Cushman) from using cream of tartar was to do with the cream of tartar or the acid inversion process itself. ie, not a problem with citric acid?

Of course using a minimum amount to do the job properly is always advisable.

Can someone remind me why a few years ago it was practice to add chlorine bleach to the syrup please? I remember that it was common and had a good reason, but without a lot of sifting then the reason escapes me. I believe that the practice is no longer common?