Insulation

[Michael Palmer]

If fixing inside the roof, what is the best type of glue to use?

Why do you need to glue the foam to the lid? Why not just lay it on the crown board and put the lid on? I run 1000 hives and do it this way. No problems, and then I can tie up the foam boards in the spring and put it away.

 

[user 20297]

The 'Apiarist' ones are single sheet polycarbonate, not the double walled type.
Just tape over the ends.

The double wall is mainly for strength.

Of you seal the ends, (which the instructions on the product say you should do), the still air in the flutes gives a slight increase in insulative properties.

 

[oliver90owner]

the still air in the flutes gives a slight increase in insulative properties

Really? Never heard of convection? Why do you think insulation foam has multitudes of tiny cells within the matrix? It will provide a little increase, but the air will not be still if one side is warmer than the other. Simple Physics again, which many don’t seem to understand.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why do you need to glue the foam to the lid? Why not just lay it on the crown board and put the lid on? I run 1000 hives and do it this way. No problems, and then I can tie up the foam boards in the spring and put it away.

Because the celotex stays on throughout the year, it's one less thing to wrestle with when replacing roofs, it's amazing sometimes how awkward it is to replace a roof when the celotex keeps sliding around

 

[user 20297]

the still air in the flutes gives a slight increase in insulative properties

Really? Never heard of convection? Why do you think insulation foam has multitudes of tiny cells within the matrix? It will provide a little increase, but the air will not be still if one side is warmer than the other. Simple Physics again, which many don’t seem to understand.

Quote me properly and then think about it properly, "(Of) If you seal the ends, (which the instructions on the product say you should do), the still air in the flutes gives a slight increase in insulative properties."

"Trapped air is a natural insulator and because it is trapped, convection currents cannot be set up easily. So, trapped air reduces heat loss by conduction and convection. Many insulating materials incorporate trapped air."
Courtesy BBC Bitesize, my go-to for anything technical.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zr7j382/revision/5

 

[user 20297]

But I could be wrong!

Hey, don't you know the rules? You're meant to disagree with me and infer that I'm stupid, it's not acceptable to consider the possibility that you might be wrong!!! As you say, it's a complex subject, in which regard we both risk losing whatever small amount credibility we might have by making hypotheses.

The main debate remains as to whether in the UK, insulation beyond that in the roof makes any positive gains for our bees; I think it does.

 

[pargyle]

It;s a debate that will persist as long as there are beekeepers ... I think most of us now agree that insulation, generally, is a good thing and the best place for it is above the crown board on the basis that heat rises and will be contained where the bees are most likely to be .

How much insulation and the relative difference between poly hives and timber hives will be a bone of contention as both materials allow bees to survive and thrive in our relatively clement climate in the UK.

Personally, I remain convinced that poly hives are advantageous to bees - warm in the winter and by comparison to timber hives, cooler in the summer. Anything that assists the bees to keep the temperature (and humidity) that the bees prefer has to be a benefit as I see it.

I do accept that bees have been kept in wooden boxes ever since movable frames were invented (and in some cases, well before that) but I would not go back to keeping my meat in a meat safe with a damp towel draped over it, as my grandparents did, now that we have modern insulated refrigerators - time moves on.

I also think that there is no such thing as too much insulation - yes, at some point there remains little additional benefit from further levels of insulation and I seem to recall that Derek Mitchell, formerly of this parish, did suggest that in terms of bee hives there was little measurable difference between 50mm of PIR and uprwards of 75mm of PIR (I'm happy to be corrected as my memory is not what it was).

Me ... I currently have a super on top of all my poly hives that is full of PIR and the roof goes on top of that ... my hives at the crownboard feel very toasty even on the mornings lately when we had a slight frost down here. It costs nothing to have more insulation if you skip dive ... is more insulation detrimental ? I think not ...

But... they are your bees and however you keep bees is the right way for you.

 

[Murox]

Hey, don't you know the rules? You're meant to disagree with me and infer that I'm stupid, it's not acceptable to consider the possibility that you might be wrong!!! As you say, it's a complex subject, in which regard we both risk losing whatever small amount credibility we might have by making hypotheses.

The main debate remains as to whether in the UK, insulation beyond that in the roof makes any positive gains for our bees; I think it does.

You're in good company -even Langstroth figured that a double skinned hive was beneficial. Then of course there was Roger Delon's Stable-Climate Hive and more recently the zest hive given to us by Bill Summers.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Because the celotex stays on throughout the year, it's one less thing to wrestle with when replacing roofs, it's amazing sometimes how awkward it is to replace a roof when the celotex keeps sliding around

If its a nice tight fit it won't slide around, Its more of a pain with the wind blowing them of that I've found.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But you won't always get a tight fit, you might have time to fiddle around for ages getting the right fit, but my time is too precious - sometimes you have to go with the pieces you have. I've even found sometimes that the 'tight fit' will at times turn out to not be so.

 

[Curly green finger's]

But you won't always get a tight fit, you might have time to fiddle around for ages getting the right fit, but my time is too precious - sometimes you have to go with the pieces you have. I've even found sometimes that the 'tight fit' will at times turn out to not be so.

I don't fiddle around for ages! I just cut a piece that fits tightly, it's not like it's going to shrink in any way.

 

[pete darbyshire]

Delete

 

[pete darbyshire]

Delete

 

[pete darbyshire]

25mm may be ‘enough’ but 50mm will be better.

How do we know? Simple Physics would provide you with the answer. Double the thickness

Not true!! The insulation is parabolic, the first 25mm stops 95 percent of heat loss.

 

[user 20297]

How do we know? Simple Physics would provide you with the answer. Double the thickness will halve the heat transmission

Not true!! The insulation is parabolic, the first 25mm stops 95 percent of heat loss.View attachment 29070

That can't be true. If that was the case there would be no point in putting on a jacket in winter.....we're in the realm of metaphysics!

 

[pete darbyshire]

If you want to wear 4 jackets to keep a little bit warmer.....

 

[user 20297]

If you want to wear 4 jackets to keep a little bit warmer.....

My house roof was designed with 125mm of PIR; by the time the house was built the regulations had changed and technically that was inadequate. If there is only marginal gain, why did technicians who are qualified in the subject specify 100mm more insulation than necessary?

 

[robmort]

the still air in the flutes gives a slight increase in insulative properties

Really? Never heard of convection? Why do you think insulation foam has multitudes of tiny cells within the matrix? It will provide a little increase, but the air will not be still if one side is warmer than the other. Simple Physics again, which many don’t seem to understand.

Really??
One in particular doesn't seem to understand simple physics that warmed air escaping from the ends of the flutes is far worse for thermal retention than trapping the air inside the walls, as the manufacturers state.
Simple, just needs a bit of thought whuch seems lacking.

 

[ericbeaumont]

is the Abelo poly deep roof compatible with a cedar national?

Yes.

 

[pete darbyshire]

My house roof was designed with 125mm of PIR; by the time the house was built the regulations had changed and technically that was inadequate. If there is only marginal gain, why did technicians who are qualified in the subject specify 100mm more insulation than necessary?
[/QUOTE

I don't. disagree. My point was that doubling the insulation does not half the heat loss, and the thicker it gets, the less benefit is gained per cm added.