Importation of bees

[Into the lions den]

Haven't read your whole post yet but just wanted to type my thoughts on your UK supply being able to supply the UK market being a myth statement.
Of course uk supply could manage, it's purely price point and convenience we fail on.
If necessary we could overwinter more nucs to fill the gap, without doubt.
I'm not arguing here that we should do this, just refuting your definitive statement.

Its a matter of timing.....people want them too early...and phasing..the UK cycle of bee needs differs from other places.

Phasing is that when an area suffers catastrophic losses (as occasionally happens) it affects the bee producers just as badly as their potential clients.

There are no big UK producers because the years when it is simple to supply bees not many people need them......and the years when lots of people need them not many people have them. Yes..the concept is superficially valid and a very simple view says why not make more nucs but it just is not that simple.

Phasing is actually the long term killer on the concept. If it was a real runner it would mean a significant UK bee producing industry...but it is absent and always has been.....even at our number we still constitute merely a cottage industry..and doing the sums over a decade long cycle the 'phasing' issue is a severe hazard to long term viability.

Thats why access to bees from areas in a different phase of the good and bad wintering cycle is crucial for early supplies.

A handful of nucs, and under 100 IS sadly a handful, is not going to dent the trade. Also most nucs traded locally I have seen are bees that are not conducive to bee farming...cull fodder to us...so the quality needs raising a a major way. The nuc standard should say much more about the actual bees and not really just be about size. Many of these 'nice locally adapted bees' are actually aggressive and problematical in many ways *from our perspective*...but some people like them.

In business nature abhors a vaccuum................UK supplies would have filled it long ago if it actually worked.

Price point and convenience. Have you not just defined the same thing I said? Nether work.

You COULD make it work with a lot of very regressive legislation banning almost everything else allied to severe enforcement. ( By regressive I am not being abusive..I mean turn back the clock to an earlier era.)

 

[Apple]

Alas the vast majority of bees are sold to hobbyists, to be realistic beefarming or factory farming honey production is not a huge market in the UK,
THE MAJORITY OF BEEFARMERS SEEM TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE COLONIES TO REPLACE OR INCREASE FOR THEIR OWN NEEDS!

Who then is ( or would be) buying all of these early imported nucs of bees?

 

[mbc]

Its a matter of timing.....people want them too early...and phasing..the UK cycle of bee needs differs from other places.

Phasing is that when an area suffers catastrophic losses (as occasionally happens) it affects the bee producers just as badly as their potential clients.

There are no big UK producers because the years when it is simple to supply bees not many people need them......and the years when lots of people need them not many people have them. Yes..the concept is superficially valid and a very simple view says why not make more nucs but it just is not that simple.

Phasing is actually the long term killer on the concept. If it was a real runner it would mean a significant UK bee producing industry...but it is absent and always has been.....even at our number we still constitute merely a cottage industry..and doing the sums over a decade long cycle the 'phasing' issue is a severe hazard to long term viability.

Thats why access to bees from areas in a different phase of the good and bad wintering cycle is crucial for early supplies.

A handful of nucs, and under 100 IS sadly a handful, is not going to dent the trade. Also most nucs traded locally I have seen are bees that are not conducive to bee farming...cull fodder to us...so the quality needs raising a a major way. The nuc standard should say much more about the actual bees and not really just be about size. Many of these 'nice locally adapted bees' are actually aggressive and problematical in many ways *from our perspective*...but some people like them.

In business nature abhors a vaccuum................UK supplies would have filled it long ago if it actually worked.

Price point and convenience. Have you not just defined the same thing I said? Nether work.

You COULD make it work with a lot of very regressive legislation banning almost everything else allied to severe enforcement. ( By regressive I am not being abusive..I mean turn back the clock to an earlier era.)

Thanks for the detailed answer, but again I'm not arguing here if it should or shouldn't happen, but wether it's feasible, your "myth" that it could happen at all.
I'm unphased by your 'phasing' argument, though I see clearly that this is the largest hurdle in supply and demand, and the argument about the lack of significant bee producing industry is purely a chicken and egg thing.
Obviously we're hampered by being marginal bee territory with high costs, and bees from further south where the labour costs are lower and the bees are able to do more of the work themselves over a longer season are going to be cheaper.
That's all going back to cost and convenience, anything else is a straw man.
Of course we could cover our own bee supply, admittedly this would be inconvenient and expensive to a certain business model, and the vagaries of bad winters or poor summer's could cause prices to fluctuate annoyingly for put and take beekeepers, but there would be nothing stopping us producing a vast surplus of bees for export if the financial incentive were there.

 

[Into the lions den]

Despite appearances I am actually busy today..lol. But rewiring frames is not mentally stimulating work so I am easily distracted.

Seriously..have done the calculations..made business plans. It can only work if you heavily subsidise it or find a way to get rid of the producers cycle being too 'in phase' with the customers..

The imported stock is not stupidly cheaper than local. Does not suit everyone to hear this...but a large number of the recipients actually prefer the stock. Price advantage is not huge. Forget amateur market pricing. A professional price for a UK nuc is around £160 max. includes 6 frames ALL with bees on NOT inclusive of the box. Resellers will then sell on to amateurs at 220 to 240 but most of the buyers I knew before we stepped back from that market are looking to crop pollination and/or make a honey crop and not resell. You cannot compare the big trade rates..on which viable businesses of sufficient scale are founded...with the ones and twos market which has far higher prices (and the vendors in that market earn every penny.) Not comparing like with like.

An imported package is £120. Now do you want a package for 120 that is going to be in decline for 3 weeks or a roughly equal nuc for 160 that is immediately growing? I would be spending the 160.

Over the last few seasons we have brought in between 1000 and 2000 packages a year. In heavy winter loss years could have sold maybe 8000, but 2000 is our producers upper limit. In a low winter loss year it is a struggle to move all the ones we have booked. Our customer distribution is varied but 95% to bee farmers. Some of those will no doubt be making 'locally adapted' nucs with them and selling them on, and one actually resells the packages..but nonetheless 95% goes to people in business.

All those who think they have the magic formula nobody else has ever found? Don't sit on the sidelines chucking rocks at folk on the coal face trying their best. Don't complain...just DO IT. Words are cheap shots. You think it is a goer and easy..then go walk the walk.

Then come back after 5 years and show how well you are doing. I will be the first to applaud you if you can make a reliable long term living from doing so. You will ONLY satisfy UK demand if there are a number of people doing just that..it will NEVER be covered by people abhorring the profit side and doing a few as a charitable sideline. Their undercutting of viability thresholds is as much responsible for no major business developing as are the not so terribly cheap imports.

We do both but have a major bee farm the unit is attached to so can cross finance it in tough times. It needs the twin track approach.

 

[Ian123]

Give up Murray go watch the rugby

 

[mbc]

Despite appearances I am actually busy today..lol. But rewiring frames is not mentally stimulating work so I am easily distracted.

Seriously..have done the calculations..made business plans. It can only work if you heavily subsidise it or find a way to get rid of the producers cycle being too 'in phase' with the customers..

The imported stock is not stupidly cheaper than local. Does not suit everyone to hear this...but a large number of the recipients actually prefer the stock. Price advantage is not huge. Forget amateur market pricing. A professional price for a UK nuc is around £160 max. includes 6 frames ALL with bees on NOT inclusive of the box. Resellers will then sell on to amateurs at 220 to 240 but most of the buyers I knew before we stepped back from that market are looking to crop pollination and/or make a honey crop and not resell. You cannot compare the big trade rates..on which viable businesses of sufficient scale are founded...with the ones and twos market which has far higher prices (and the vendors in that market earn every penny.) Not comparing like with like.

An imported package is £120. Now do you want a package for 120 that is going to be in decline for 3 weeks or a roughly equal nuc for 160 that is immediately growing? I would be spending the 160.

Over the last few seasons we have brought in between 1000 and 2000 packages a year. In heavy winter loss years could have sold maybe 8000, but 2000 is our producers upper limit. In a low winter loss year it is a struggle to move all the ones we have booked. Our customer distribution is varied but 95% to bee farmers. Some of those will no doubt be making 'locally adapted' nucs with them and selling them on, and one actually resells the packages..but nonetheless 95% goes to people in business.

All those who think they have the magic formula nobody else has ever found? Don't sit on the sidelines chucking rocks at folk on the coal face trying their best. Don't complain...just DO IT. Words are cheap shots. You think it is a goer and easy..then go walk the walk.

Then come back after 5 years and show how well you are doing. I will be the first to applaud you if you can make a reliable long term living from doing so. You will ONLY satisfy UK demand if there are a number of people doing just that..it will NEVER be covered by people abhorring the profit side and doing a few as a charitable sideline. Their undercutting of viability thresholds is as much responsible for no major business developing as are the not so terribly cheap imports.

We do both but have a major bee farm the unit is attached to so can cross finance it in tough times. It needs the twin track approach.

Still a straw man argument, why would an indigenous industry grow to supply bees when the path of least resistance lies elsewhere?
If needed to we would raise all our bees, no doubt.
Highly impressive that you still get stuck in doing the menial tasks like wiring frames, you must be mad for it, long may it continue!

 

[madasafish]

From Facebook
"

I am looking for a partner to (eventually) start a large queen rearing project.
At a minimum you must be legally allowed to work in the UK, have some knowledge and experience of Queen breeding and have a very keen interest and fully understand the process. Ideally you must have enough hives and bees to continually produce quality cells.
Eventually it would probably end up as a 50/50 split and this would not be a paid per an hour job.
Your job will be to produce cells or queens ready to be mated, keep records of genetics ect, and sell and market them at retail.
My sole role will be just to get them mated.
You must understand computers, running a website, record keeping and can see well enough to graft. Also be able to remain calm in bad situations and not get easily stressed.....it would be good if you are also a people person.
This won't be a full time job this season so make sure your still earning a living somewhere.
I am a commercial bee farmer thats very easy going, forward looking and always open to any new ideas.
I have some very good stock to breed from but the type of bee i eventually want to be breeding is one that is adapted to the wet/cold/wet/warm/windy or whatever the British climate decides its going to be that day, not to aggressive, produces a reliable amount of honey, can deal with stress and our random seasons and are varroa and cbpv resistant.
Ideally you need to be as close to NORTH WILTSHIRE as possible for logistics reasons.
If you are interested or you know someone who is just PM me with a bit of info about yourself! (but don't lie)
And leave any questions or hate in the comments.
Many thanks, Chris"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/queenrearing

 

[Monbees]

From Facebook
"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/queenrearing

Here's a petition being promoted on Facebook
https://www.change.org/p/environmen...S6I57vtw4BZotWdKNmaW8M74r7gKVgAjQ8vczZ43EG4Qs

 

[Erichalfbee]

Here's a petition being promoted on Facebook
https://www.change.org/p/environmen...S6I57vtw4BZotWdKNmaW8M74r7gKVgAjQ8vczZ43EG4Qs

Good grief!

 

[Into the lions den]

Still a straw man argument, why would an indigenous industry grow to supply bees when the path of least resistance lies elsewhere?
If needed to we would raise all our bees, no doubt.
Highly impressive that you still get stuck in doing the menial tasks like wiring frames, you must be mad for it, long may it continue!

Give up Murray go watch the rugby

I WAS a cricket player when younger...and am a football person...Str Johnstone..with whom I have a season ticket..won today so am mellow. Do not even know what the score in the rugby is.

Not worried about the other opinions..........I have done the sums and do the work....... the idea is laudable....but the practicalities are immense. That people should be protected getting by a high price for small numbers of bees, of a type that are mainly popular in the amateur sector is effectively subsidising peasant level activity...which we criticised the French for for many years. The idea that the world would even want your average British bee is fanciful and largely nonsense. If the world actually wanted black bees the Spanish, Portuguese, and southern French would dominate the bees and queens industry. They have a perfect climate for it and very high numbers of beekeepers. Most of the beekeeping world don't want them...and forum posts are predominated by black bee /local bee romantics. There is a relatively silent majority out there that just want nice workable productive bees. Type not especially important.

The real sickener is not the bad year when you cannot raise enough.....a couple of seasons recently it has been 6 weeks in summer with zero matings...its the year you do well.....and the inbox is full of cancellations as the customers managed to get their own splits mated or have run out of kit due to lots of their own splits. Nothing more disheartening than a box of 50 home raised mated laying queens sitting buzzing away in the office because your clients are in the same position as you as it has been a good year for it....then you end up making even more nucs up without any idea whether they will have a place next spring.

Not exactly a proposal you can take to the bank manager.

I like doing frames btw...I can do it on autopilot whist my mind processes other things...plans for the season..talking to clients and farmers etc etc..whilst banging away on the wiring/waxing

 

[Ian123]

Ooops

 

[Newbeeneil]

From Facebook
"

I am looking for a partner to (eventually) start a large queen rearing project.
At a minimum you must be legally allowed to work in the UK, have some knowledge and experience of Queen breeding and have a very keen interest and fully understand the process. Ideally you must have enough hives and bees to continually produce quality cells.
Eventually it would probably end up as a 50/50 split and this would not be a paid per an hour job.
Your job will be to produce cells or queens ready to be mated, keep records of genetics ect, and sell and market them at retail.
My sole role will be just to get them mated.
You must understand computers, running a website, record keeping and can see well enough to graft. Also be able to remain calm in bad situations and not get easily stressed.....it would be good if you are also a people person.
This won't be a full time job this season so make sure your still earning a living somewhere.
I am a commercial bee farmer thats very easy going, forward looking and always open to any new ideas.
I have some very good stock to breed from but the type of bee i eventually want to be breeding is one that is adapted to the wet/cold/wet/warm/windy or whatever the British climate decides its going to be that day, not to aggressive, produces a reliable amount of honey, can deal with stress and our random seasons and are varroa and cbpv resistant.
Ideally you need to be as close to NORTH WILTSHIRE as possible for logistics reasons.
If you are interested or you know someone who is just PM me with a bit of info about yourself! (but don't lie)
And leave any questions or hate in the comments.
Many thanks, Chris"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/queenrearing

I saw this and the comments that followed were very amusing from both sides of the argument

 

[Ian123]

Good grief!

Never going to happen

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If it was feasible or possible, why haven't the usual zealots already gone and done this? we didn't have to wait for Brexit before we were 'allowed' to raise our own queens. People have been banging on for years about being self sufficient in queen rearing, but it's nowhere near happening yet.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Here's a petition being promoted on Facebook
https://www.change.org/p/environmen...S6I57vtw4BZotWdKNmaW8M74r7gKVgAjQ8vczZ43EG4Qs

Good grief!

They haven't even done their research and directed it to the correct agency

 

[Apple]

Never going to happen

Maybee it has.......

 

[Erichalfbee]

They haven't even done their research and directed it to the correct agency

The comments are predictable.

 

[Ian123]

Maybee it has.......

?

 

[mbc]

I WAS a cricket player when younger...and am a football person...Str Johnstone..with whom I have a season ticket..won today so am mellow. Do not even know what the score in the rugby is.

Not worried about the other opinions..........I have done the sums and do the work....... the idea is laudable....but the practicalities are immense. That people should be protected getting by a high price for small numbers of bees, of a type that are mainly popular in the amateur sector is effectively subsidising peasant level activity...which we criticised the French for for many years. The idea that the world would even want your average British bee is fanciful and largely nonsense. If the world actually wanted black bees the Spanish, Portuguese, and southern French would dominate the bees and queens industry. They have a perfect climate for it and very high numbers of beekeepers. Most of the beekeeping world don't want them...and forum posts are predominated by black bee /local bee romantics. There is a relatively silent majority out there that just want nice workable productive bees. Type not especially important.

The real sickener is not the bad year when you cannot raise enough.....a couple of seasons recently it has been 6 weeks in summer with zero matings...its the year you do well.....and the inbox is full of cancellations as the customers managed to get their own splits mated or have run out of kit due to lots of their own splits. Nothing more disheartening than a box of 50 home raised mated laying queens sitting buzzing away in the office because your clients are in the same position as you as it has been a good year for it....then you end up making even more nucs up without any idea whether they will have a place next spring.

Not exactly a proposal you can take to the bank manager.

I like doing frames btw...I can do it on autopilot whist my mind processes other things...plans for the season..talking to clients and farmers etc etc..whilst banging away on the wiring/waxing

I WAS a cricket player when younger...and am a football person...Str Johnstone..with whom I have a season ticket..won today so am mellow. Do not even know what the score in the rugby is.

Not worried about the other opinions..........I have done the sums and do the work....... the idea is laudable....but the practicalities are immense. That people should be protected getting by a high price for small numbers of bees, of a type that are mainly popular in the amateur sector is effectively subsidising peasant level activity...which we criticised the French for for many years. The idea that the world would even want your average British bee is fanciful and largely nonsense. If the world actually wanted black bees the Spanish, Portuguese, and southern French would dominate the bees and queens industry. They have a perfect climate for it and very high numbers of beekeepers. Most of the beekeeping world don't want them...and forum posts are predominated by black bee /local bee romantics. There is a relatively silent majority out there that just want nice workable productive bees. Type not especially important.

The real sickener is not the bad year when you cannot raise enough.....a couple of seasons recently it has been 6 weeks in summer with zero matings...its the year you do well.....and the inbox is full of cancellations as the customers managed to get their own splits mated or have run out of kit due to lots of their own splits. Nothing more disheartening than a box of 50 home raised mated laying queens sitting buzzing away in the office because your clients are in the same position as you as it has been a good year for it....then you end up making even more nucs up without any idea whether they will have a place next spring.

Not exactly a proposal you can take to the bank manager.

I like doing frames btw...I can do it on autopilot whist my mind processes other things...plans for the season..talking to clients and farmers etc etc..whilst banging away on the wiring/waxing

First mention of which type of bee might be raised in this thread, moving goalposts?

Me too on the wiring, almost meditative that sort of work.

 

[Apple]

If it was feasible or possible, why haven't the usual zealots already gone and done this? we didn't have to wait for Brexit before we were 'allowed' to raise our own queens. People have been banging on for years about being self sufficient in queen rearing, but it's nowhere near happening yet.

Always seems to come from the hobby beekeepers.......