Import of NZ bees into UK

[mandabow]

Hi mandabow

It is interesting that although you have not read all the thread and that you picked up on the idea that you think the coop wants to help the British Black Bee and if you read more of the thread you will at times be both board and at times fascinated.

Time will tell if the coop are interested in helping the British Black Bee as is often referred to or to give it its correct name Apis Mellifera Mellifera or AMM.

I understand plenty of AMM in Scotland and from what I hear beekeepers still prefer them as they cope with the harsh weather but in England thin on the ground.

The fact is the coop’s concern comes across genuine, but in fact as I see it is a good political answer to question’s regarding the import of queens from New Zealand.

Many times people refer to locally reared queens and many times the reply from the coop is on the lines of, “we are committed to helping the British Black Bee and are trying to source and help its return”.

When then pressed on the fact that AMM is not exactly locally reared and is after all especially in England a specialist stock they reply with words to the effect of “The strain of bee we are importing from New Zealand is European, and essentially the same as every other bee in the country”

Then the question starts again, “so why does the coop not bread locally reared queens if what they are importing is basically the same as what we have now?

We all know the answers to the questions, the coop will not give there true reasons for importing queens into the country it is not the image they want to put across, the coop want to be seen saving the British bee, when at the heart of the enterprise it is a commercial operation and that is not so bad everything we consume is from a commercial operation, so why the coop don’t just say we are importing the queens on a commercial financial reasons.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbI2Lk0eY8E&feature=player_embedded[/ame] used black bees (or what i saw as black) and they make a big who ha on their website about black native bees being better.. sees somewhat contra to their PR to be importing a non uK strain be it origionally from europe or not.

with ever increasingly cold winters i would have thought it would be more of an advantage comming into the future. if they wanted to requeen every year anyway they could probably even sell on their yr old queens sucessfully.

This rather picks up on a point I've been trying to make. There is a lot of fuss on this thread about corrupting the gene pool by bringing in New Zealand bees, which is a complete red herring. I'm not sure ITLD would want to do this- there are about 20 spp of New Zealand bees- all solitary. The only honey bees in NZ are european, firstly to provide Honey for settlers, more recently because the climate is condusive to commercial beekeeping and rearing. What Mandabow suggests is not so very different, just selecting the breeding stock on slightly different criteria of desirability.

indeed, got a bit further in the thread last night before my insomnia subsided, still dont think it's such a bad idea. meeting the criterion which they spout on their website. personally i'm for whatever has best natural dieases/bug resistance

however they say "could hold the key to survival of the entire population." and "With careful selection they are good tempered and good honey producers." so really they should put their money where their mouths are.. all they need is one such good tempered and good honey queen, and a few hundred drones (easily produced by not allowing her first few daughters to mate) and hey preso instead fo going against their schpeel they are moving forward their pledge in a huge way. and hopefully the positive traits will further improve our mongrel population + second hand queens could be sold cheap to those wanting to promote AMM bees growth.

they say they desire to help the native black bee. yes the profits may be a bit smaller, but the PR from it would be fantastic.

 

[DanBee]

they make a big who ha on their website about black native bees being better.. sees somewhat contra to their PR to be importing a non uK strain be it origionally from europe or not.

You really are missing a lot by jumping in at this end of the thread Search this thread for the word 'marketing' and understand the distinction between various parts of the Coop, and who is promoting Plan B and for what purpose.

with ever increasingly cold winters i would have thought it would be more of an advantage comming into the future.

I remember when all the fuss was about global warming...

however they say "could hold the key to survival of the entire population." and "With careful selection they are good tempered and good honey producers."

You could say that of any race/strain of honey bee, even good old local mongrels

all they need is one such good tempered and good honey queen, and a few hundred drones (easily produced by not allowing her first few daughters to mate) and hey preso

Swift spiral into inbreeding. It's not as simple as that - if it was we'd have had umpteen races of 'super bees' decades ago, including varroa tolerant bees David Woodward's recently published book on queen breeding would be a very good introduction to the topic and would explain the complexities in much more depth.

 

[Norton]

Don't believe everything you read in books by the way! And what you see on the TV, Internet, read in the newspaper and on the forums.
Best regards
Norton
(Who is in Crete for this week)
Time is honey!!

 

[Friar Tuck]

fef you see key planb bee thats what i sat to the co op

 

[RoofTops]

Lay off the mead Friar T!

 

[Friar Tuck]

Lay off the mead Friar T!

tbh not many people even care on this forum anyway ... but ... need we bother ?

 

[RoseCottage]

Mandabow,
Welcome to the thread. your points are pretty valid and if you search/flick throughout the posts you will see the hypocrisy of the Co-Ops position is discussed several points.

From comments made on here recently it is becoming clear that the Co-Op do not care overly about this...they appear to believe that they can explain away the clash in ethics and misleading marketing messages and get away with misrepresenting their initiatives to the public.

they may be right but they do run a risk. I suspect that they are calculating a positive position. If you would like to support an engagement with them in this then drop me a pm. A number of members have done this already and we have a starting position planned for just such an engagement.

Sam

 

[Skyhook]

with ever increasingly cold winters i would have thought it would be more of an advantage comming into the future.

I remember when all the fuss was about global warming...

The two are not mutually exclusive. Planet warms up, local effects vary. For more details, read everything published on the subject in the last 150 years.

 

[Chris B]

the hypocrisy of the Co-Ops position

Or you could say pragmatism. But the thing that puzzles me is their statements make it sound like the only alternatives were purebred AMM or imported bees.

 

[johna]

ITLD won't be too popular if he brings "infected" southern bees up to the scottish heather moors or,is the intention to take the bees to sites south of the border?My comments about migratory beekeeping and the spread of "bugs" still applies.

 

[Poly Hive]

Infected by what?

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

ITLD won't be too popular if he brings "infected" southern bees up to the scottish heather moors or,is the intention to take the bees to sites south of the border?My comments about migratory beekeeping and the spread of "bugs" still applies.

Heather siting not decided yet.

However.......................

Cross border heather migration is well established and surprisingly commonplace.

I meet bees from the London area on an estate near Aviemore, though I have never met the keeper.

I know DIRECTLY of a guy from Herts who migrates by truck to Tomintoul area each summer. (I am sure Poly Hive will know where the Hills of Cromdale are.) Significant numbers too.

There are others. They do not worry me.

Not exactly a new practice. Like everything else, do it prudently, thus maintaining isolation and keep away from other beekeepers. Only ONE of our heather estates is shared, but at 125,000 acres, and with us operating in different parts of the ground, we keep our isolation. The remainder we operate on with exclusivity and can be as far as 10 miles from anyone elses bees.

 

[Into the lions den]

Co-op want to help the british black bee.

This is true. Plan bee is a part of a different section of the Co-op group altogether from farms though, and the two can happily run alongside eachother. If ALL imported stock were to be eliminated or not bred from you turn the country into effectively a bee museum.

. UK suppliers can't make as many as they need for their large scale production as a low enough price to be viable. NZ can.

This stock selection is not cost driven, it is quality driven, though of course cost cannot ever be totally eliminated as a factor. However queens can be obtained from mainland Europe, no fuss, good health certification, for about one third of the cost. It is also driven by timing. Anyone here wanting to supply colonies with a new seasons (not overwintered) queen, ready to work, in late March?

NZ bees need requeening every year, at significant cost and effort to the co-op.

Untrue. All previous experience you may have had with NZ stock is invalid for these bees.

would the co-op not be better off paying slightly more to have a few Black bees sent out to NZ (lord knows how many hoops would have to be jumped through to send the other way... but if they can import from greece then i don't see why provided they are clean and never leave laboratory conditions it couldnt be arranged)

Two points.
1. NZ bush country is already awash with relict black bees from importations from the UK and elsewhere over 100 years ago. In some areas if you leave their yellow Italians in the area for long they start reverting to the black feral stock type. The New Zealanders hate them.

2. I have asked my serious NZ contacts about imports from Greece. Absolute cast iron 'no way' response. They think that a claim on a website to that effect is 'imaginative' and a marketing ploy.

have the companies breed a starter supply of black bees in their facilities and send them back to the Co-op.

The stock is already in the country, I tried a few years ago to get a guy on South island to breed from it for me. Long story, but in the end I got no queens, and he got my money.

 

[Into the lions den]

Infected by what?
PH

Rumsfeltitis.

fear of the unknown unknowns

 

[Poly Hive]

LOL

About the size of it yes.

PH

 

[RoofTops]

Rumsfeltitis.

fear of the unknown unknowns

Brilliant. We have to keep this thread going for the ton but in that one word ITLD sums it all up I think.

 

[Poly Hive]

never shy...

Yup.

PH

 

[johna]

I'm only stirring it PH-love to see this thread reach the "ton".The trouble is so much ground has been covered with so many permutations,it's difficult to find anything fresh to add.

 

[Norton]

"

The New Zealanders hate them

.

Why???

 

[johna]

".

Why???

I'll bet its because they can't make a few bob from breeding them or, perhaps they're too feisty.
What stocks provide the true parentage of the N.Z queens used for export.What races of bees are used by N.Z honey producers.I think their Manauka honey tastes foul tho' I was offered the stuff slapped over a leg ulcer by the N.H.S. Perhaps that's another import we should make a fuss about.Why can't the N.H.S. use good old British honey?