Import of NZ bees into UK

[Poly Hive]

Nellie.

I was told, and so put in brackets that the BBKA teaches this.

You are quoting source material and so the pure version is what you say.

However what is ACTUALLY taught can be a very different matter.

For instance I heard recently that a very senior BBKA person insists that the smoker be held between the legs. A better recipe for back trouble you could not get with a hive. So what is supposed to be taught and what actually is are different matters.


PH

 

[dilys]

Everything is about having the bees ready for early July.

When your bees will all be on some heather moor. It still seems a very odd policy to me.

 

[Poly Hive]

Not odd at all.

Blossom honey = £2 odd bulk price.

Heather = £3+ bulk price.

Simple

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

When your bees will all be on some heather moor. It still seems a very odd policy to me.

What do you mean by 'a very odd policy'?

By 'ready' I mean in prime condition to work, swarming inclination ended, and lots of brood to give us maximum flying bees in August. So, the management for the whole season is geared to maximum number of colonies in *optimum* condition for the migration. Note that this does not mean top condition. Top condition happens 2 to 4 weeks later.

If you want a good heather crop the first thing you do is throw away the text books. They are generally about modest crops of show bench standard honey and often involved cramping the queen, which has a serious effect on the number of young bees raised late season and thus your wintering performance. Historically (and it will come back to that), heather honey is 1.5 to 2.0times the price of blossom, so the logic of going after it, even to the detriment of the blossom harvest, is plain.

 

[gavin]

Oops.....will now be seen as a FAT, greedy exploitative commercial beekeeper........

You have been called 'Scotland's largest beekeeper' on more than one occasion! Definitely 'fit' though as well as any other adjective. In the physiological sense of course.

PS I reckon that the reason this site doesn't like the word for the top of a mountain is that there is a commercial bee supplies company with that name and admin doesn't want advertising.

 

[johna]

Nellie.

For instance I heard recently that a very senior BBKA person insists that the smoker be held between the legs. A better recipe for back trouble you could not get with a hive. So what is supposed to be taught and what actually is are different matters.


PH

I wouldn't advocate the smoker between the legs posture unless you are deliberately attempting to ventilate the trouser legs.Even with guard cages they get pretty hot-certainly hot enough to melt modern polyester materials.Better to screw a picture hook in the back to allow hanging on the side of the b.box during examinations.

 

[mandabow]

sorry i havn't read all of this thread, i havnt the patience, may get round to it sometime.. but thought i'd share a random thought in the meantime.

Co-op want to help the british black bee.. UK suppliers can't make as many as they need for their large scale production as a low enough price to be viable. NZ can.

NZ bees need requeening every year, at significant cost and effort to the co-op. would the co-op not be better off paying slightly more to have a few Black bees sent out to NZ (lord knows how many hoops would have to be jumped through to send the other way... but if they can import from greece then i don't see why provided they are clean and never leave laboratory conditions it couldnt be arranged)

have the companies breed a starter supply of black bees in their facilities and send them back to the Co-op.

thus saving the coop in Operating costs of requeening yearly from NZ, and instead be able to replace any lost colonies by dividing existing ones and letting nature take its corse on queenless half.

giving the black bee a massive boost and enabaling them to turn this PR disaster into something they can be proud of and advertise on their product.

i'm pretty sure the costs associated with the actual II in NZ wont be greater by using our bees, they may charge more for loss of long term revenue, but given the global bee problems i doubt they'd notice the dent in sales. + in getting black bees into NZ it would give them and extra product line they could sell back to beeks in the uk wanting to set up a colony. i'm sure a fair few don't even realise there is a choice + a fair few more would pay over the odds for one.

edited to add + they don't have the hassle fo selectively breeding unless they want to

 

[Hivemaker.]

I suggest you read all of the thread,then you would realize some of the notions you have are incorrect.

 

[mandabow]

I suggest you read all of the thread,then you would realize some of the notions you have are incorrect.

been trying to for days, but whenever time i come back to it has got insanely longer! friad i'm not a fast reader, and its turning into a bit of a slagging match which reduced my concentration span further.

had a feeling there might be info in it somewhere hence my "not read the thread" qualifier to explain i htis occured sorry!

 

[Hombre]

You'll never earn Admin's read all the thread medal that way Mandabow . . .

Fred Bloggs made the gargantuan effort a few days back and didn't report back that he was on any special medication as a result, but he may now be recuperating from the experience. LoL.

Essentially, the discussion rolls on, the season rolls on, the plans roll on and the Lion scratches a minor itch, while giving us the benefit of his insight. So, yes a beneficial thread, from a number of different directions, mostly unanticipated at it's outset I'd hazard a guess.

Winners and losers - no real change there of course.

 

[mandabow]

You'll never earn Admin's read all the thread medal that way Mandabow . . .

oooo a badge, no-one told me there was a badge!

Fred Bloggs made the gargantuan effort a few days back and didn't report back that he was on any special medication as a result, but he may now be recuperating from the experience. LoL.

and if hes in catatonic scitsophrenia?? (sorry for typonese)

Essentially, the discussion rolls on, the season rolls on, the plans roll on and the Lion scratches a minor itch, while giving us the benefit of his insight. So, yes a beneficial thread, from a number of different directions, mostly unanticipated at it's outset I'd hazard a guess.

Winners and losers - no real change there of course.

ooo speak of beneficial may give me the imputus to read more, knew there must be sommet in it or it wouldnt have got so long without being locked (saying that not seen a locked thread here yet!.. ha ha but i shant clog the thread anymore with my drivel.

 

[Tom Bick]

Co-op want to help the british black bee.. UK suppliers can't make as many as they need for their large scale production as a low enough price to be viable. NZ can.

Hi mandabow

It is interesting that although you have not read all the thread and that you picked up on the idea that you think the coop wants to help the British Black Bee and if you read more of the thread you will at times be both board and at times fascinated.

Time will tell if the coop are interested in helping the British Black Bee as is often referred to or to give it its correct name Apis Mellifera Mellifera or AMM.

I understand plenty of AMM in Scotland and from what I hear beekeepers still prefer them as they cope with the harsh weather but in England thin on the ground.

The fact is the coop’s concern comes across genuine, but in fact as I see it is a good political answer to question’s regarding the import of queens from New Zealand.

Many times people refer to locally reared queens and many times the reply from the coop is on the lines of, “we are committed to helping the British Black Bee and are trying to source and help its return”.

When then pressed on the fact that AMM is not exactly locally reared and is after all especially in England a specialist stock they reply with words to the effect of “The strain of bee we are importing from New Zealand is European, and essentially the same as every other bee in the country”

Then the question starts again, “so why does the coop not bread locally reared queens if what they are importing is basically the same as what we have now?

We all know the answers to the questions, the coop will not give there true reasons for importing queens into the country it is not the image they want to put across, the coop want to be seen saving the British bee, when at the heart of the enterprise it is a commercial operation and that is not so bad everything we consume is from a commercial operation, so why the coop don’t just say we are importing the queens on a commercial financial reasons.

 

[Tom Bick]

I am embarrased I try so hard but just don’t see my obviouse mistakes they are invisable to me

 

[Skyhook]

sorry i havn't read all of this thread, i havnt the patience, may get round to it sometime.. but thought i'd share a random thought in the meantime.

Co-op want to help the british black bee.. UK suppliers can't make as many as they need for their large scale production as a low enough price to be viable. NZ can.

NZ bees need requeening every year, at significant cost and effort to the co-op. would the co-op not be better off paying slightly more to have a few Black bees sent out to NZ (lord knows how many hoops would have to be jumped through to send the other way... but if they can import from greece then i don't see why provided they are clean and never leave laboratory conditions it couldnt be arranged)

have the companies breed a starter supply of black bees in their facilities and send them back to the Co-op.

thus saving the coop in Operating costs of requeening yearly from NZ, and instead be able to replace any lost colonies by dividing existing ones and letting nature take its corse on queenless half.

giving the black bee a massive boost and enabaling them to turn this PR disaster into something they can be proud of and advertise on their product.

i'm pretty sure the costs associated with the actual II in NZ wont be greater by using our bees, they may charge more for loss of long term revenue, but given the global bee problems i doubt they'd notice the dent in sales. + in getting black bees into NZ it would give them and extra product line they could sell back to beeks in the uk wanting to set up a colony. i'm sure a fair few don't even realise there is a choice + a fair few more would pay over the odds for one.

edited to add + they don't have the hassle fo selectively breeding unless they want to

This rather picks up on a point I've been trying to make. There is a lot of fuss on this thread about corrupting the gene pool by bringing in New Zealand bees, which is a complete red herring. I'm not sure ITLD would want to do this- there are about 20 spp of New Zealand bees- all solitary. The only honey bees in NZ are european, firstly to provide Honey for settlers, more recently because the climate is condusive to commercial beekeeping and rearing. What Mandabow suggests is not so very different, just selecting the breeding stock on slightly different criteria of desirability.

 

[johna]

The "fuss on this thread" is not about corruption of british bee stocks and their genes by imported queens but about the hazards of importing exotic parasites and viruses and the potential risk of a pandemic sweeping the country rather in the way the varroa mite has in the past.I can assure you that beekeeping pre varroa was much more simple and straightforward.The thought of something like the small hive beetle being imported and rampaging free doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Skyhook]

The "fuss on this thread" is not about corruption of british bee stocks and their genes by imported queens but about the hazards of importing exotic parasites and viruses and the potential risk of a pandemic sweeping the country rather in the way the varroa mite has in the past.I can assure you that beekeeping pre varroa was much more simple and straightforward.The thought of something like the small hive beetle being imported and rampaging free doesn't bear thinking about.

From Somerford, on post 1-

The issue is that the hives are to be populated by New Zealand package bees which will no doubt swarm (10% ?) and therefore infect the local gene pool.

While I appreciate that imported queens have been sold in the UK for many a year I am extremely concerned as to the effect this might have on the local I(and national) gene pool.

So what do we do ? I am very motivated to raise MERRY HELL about this as I think it has real issues for the local gene pool.

 

[Poly Hive]

I think I read several times that this post, #1 has been proven to be mistaken.

But let's not worry overly about accuracy.

PH

 

[Skyhook]

I think I read several times that this post, #1 has been proven to be mistaken.
PH

Well, yes. But on the other hand it was one of the main legs on which Somerford built his objections, the other, coming in after, being biosecurity. The Swinbees thing if I remember reared it's head some way in to the thread.

 

[johna]

The importation of bees from anywhere is going to add to the gene pool but the basic premis is that ALL pests presently affecting honeybees worldwide are the direct result of migratory beekeeping of one sort or another be it importing queens or packages or whatever.The spread of varroa in this country is the result of beekeepers moving their stocks from one location to another.This is why isolated beekeepers on some of the Scottish isles are so set against new beekeepers buying in neucs and colonies from infected areas.

 

[gavin]

There is a lot of fuss on this thread about corrupting the gene pool by bringing in New Zealand bees, which is a complete red herring.

This is the main issue for me - both this importation and last year's in my area. The NZ bees, lovely though they are, are Carniolans with an origin in Slovenia and surrounding regions. Some parts of the UK still have significant populations of native Apis mellifera mellifera, a type with quite a different background from those from Slovenia. The literature (including Ruttner's well-regarded book) says that the Carniolan cross with mellifera gives, in later generations, cross and hard to manage bees. So the risk is that you lose remaining pure Amm, end up with stocks that are not adapted for survival in the UK in the long run, and you risk making local bees crosser than they would otherwise be. I'm less worried about the biosecurity aspects of NZ bees, but in general importing bees presents risks that would not be there otherwise.

PS page 96 - nearly there!