Import of NZ bees into UK

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In my experience from a practical point of view all the N.Z crosses I have managed have been 10/10 for aggresion.

If the queens are from the same N.Z strain I have worked with then it is a ticking time bomb and will do more harm than good.


Well i got to page 32 of this thread been reading for ages, interesting comments, though not many admitting to having any NZ bees, a few have mentioned how wonderful they are, well from my experience i have to agree, rightly or wrongly i introduced 3 NZ queens to one of my sites in 2009, i bought these from a breeder in sussex.

The bees were a dream to work, i could do so in shorts and t-shirt with just a veil, they gave me a good crop of honey, but not one single colony made it through their first winter !!. My locals made it through, but the NZ seemed to suffer, 2 of the 3 went with Nosema.

That is my short experience of the NZ type, i miss their temperament, but could that laid back chilled out almost dopey behaviour, be a sign of weakness ?
 
I for one am bamboozled here. Which "one" person is supposed to brought in varroa? And no names are required.

My understanding is it arrived via container probably on a swarm.

I would presume considerably more bees are imported, than containers carrying swarms (if that is the case, my swarm boxes are in the wrong place!)

it does not take many varroa to start an epidemic... I am sure the imported bees are not checked individually!

This story sounds more like importers and beekeepers alike wearing rose tinted glasses...
 
Danbee said a few pages back ....

Hang on, let's deal with this one first:

dan said:
somerford said:
One has to accept that ITLD and Dan will never come round to our way of thinking - after all they'll stop at nothing to keep their businesses going - ie producing honey, and one can't put ethics before profit can we ?!!

Can you substantiate this claim? As far as I know we have never met, nor have you seen my bees/beekeeping. On what do you base your accusation?

Facts or retraction, please.
 
Hang on, let's deal with this one first:



Facts or retraction, please.

"one has to accept" is a personal opinion, and therefore based on a point of view which may or may not be correct (you can't retract an opinion)

Rather than requesting Somerford to substanciate a claim, would it not be better for you to correct his point of view if the facts are otherwise!?!
 
See my thread... Vanishing of the bees...

Co-OP involvement...

anyone else get dancing letters when reading all this lot?
 
"one has to accept" is a personal opinion, and therefore based on a point of view which may or may not be correct (you can't retract an opinion)

Rather than requesting Somerford to substanciate a claim, would it not be better for you to correct his point of view if the facts are otherwise!?!

Rather it is for Somerford to substantiate his publicly expressed opinion or for him to change his opinion and apologise.
 
:iagree:

Our way of thinking? There were/are a number of issues that have been largely covered and your way is not necessarily my way.

That leaves the apparent accusation regarding ethics to be resolved. Time to substaniate or retract and apologise.
 
Rather it is for Somerford to substantiate his publicly expressed opinion or for him to change his opinion and apologise.

somerford should only change his opinion and apologies 'if' he sees or reads something that can sway his view... it is still an opinion and therefore subjective.

DanBee has not said anything to suggest that this opinion has no basis on the truth.... only that Somerford should retract the opinion. If DanBee says otherwise, than Somerford will stand corrected.
 
:iagree:

Our way of thinking? There were/are a number of issues that have been largely covered and your way is not necessarily my way.

That leaves the apparent accusation regarding ethics to be resolved. Time to substaniate or retract and apologise.

Again, Somerford chooses his words carefully... who is 'our'?? Our does not necessarily mean everyone on the forum, and therefore not necessarily yours.
The thread shows that forums opinion is mixed.

I still cannot see grounds for an apology to Danbee and ITLD from DanBees 'Hang on, lets deal with this one post'.

Somerford was expressing an opinion and DanBee has said nothing to contradict it.... only stamped his feet a lot (metaphorically speaking before he asks me for an apology because he was not!).

Danbee is demanding the apology... I would like to hear Danbee's opinion on what he is demanding an apology for and actually countermand the statement.
 
As far as I know there is no evidence at all to suggest varroa arrived other than by accident into the UK.

There is anecdotal evidence, and I heard this from respected scientists at Marburg in Germany where they were amongst the first to study varroa, years before it arrived in the UK that live varroa had been found on a bee corpse on a vehicle.

That said it does not explain how it got into a hive.

My personal suspicion, and it is just my thought, that it arrived in a matchbox in a pocket. Probably by some innocent ***** who thought it was such a nice queen....

PH
 
I still cannot see grounds for an apology to Danbee and ITLD from DanBees 'Hang on, lets deal with this one post'.

Somerford was expressing an opinion and DanBee has said nothing to contradict it.... only stamped his feet a lot (metaphorically speaking before he asks me for an apology because he was not!).

Danbee is demanding the apology... I would like to hear Danbee's opinion on what he is demanding an apology for and actually countermand the statement.

Pete - I was not concerned by Somerford's observation that "One has to accept that ITLD and Dan will never come round to our way of thinking" because we have said as much already; it is however the next statement that I have issue with:

somerford said:
after all they'll stop at nothing to keep their businesses going - ie producing honey, and one can't put ethics before profit can we ?!!

That was phrased as a statement and not as an opinion. To re-iterate, I have never met Somerford, and he has never seen my bees or my beekeeping. On that basis, how can he publicly criticise my business ethics?

Facts or retraction, please.
 
Can we have a bit less of this retraction business. It helps nothing and turns otherwise interesting threads into "handbags at dawn"

There is the PM facility for these matters.

PH
 
Can we have a bit less of this retraction business. It helps nothing and turns otherwise interesting threads into "handbags at dawn"

There is the PM facility for these matters.

PH

Sorry PH, but it was a public accusation so I would like it resolved publicly.
 
Quarelling aside, I think it would be really helpful here if someone impartial could re-read the thread and give us an unbiased summary. This would give us the opportunity to refocus the debate and to continue to discuss any unresolved issues. Otherwise we are just decending into pointless to-ing and fro-ing.
 
Haha - I'd love to but I don't think anyone would buy my impartiality seeing as I've already stated my mind's made up on several of the issues!
 
At the risk of annoying a few I'll have a crack at it.

The debate can be summarised as:

The law allows authorised imports of bees, usually queens but colonies also. There are lots of rules as to what countries can or cannot send what where but essentially if you want to import bees into the UK you can find a supplier.

Some beekeepers, and this is also the stance of the BBKA, are against all imports.

The availability of queens and bees in the UK is generally small scale so if a bee farmer wants hundreds of queens or wants to set up from scratch with several hundred colonies his options are either import or take several years growing and breeding from UK sourced bees.

The main arguments against imports are the introduction of disease and the introduction of bees with different DNA to the ones in the area where they are going.

The arguments for importation include the pragmatic one that this is the only way to obtain large numbers. Diseases can be screened and imported bees could well be healthier than the local bees. The DNA argument is relevant in remote areas where people are trying to raise for example AMM bees but in the rest of the country the local bees are pretty much a mix of DNA already.

My threepence worth:

I believe all sides would agree that if we didn't have to import bees into the UK it would be a good thing but imports will continue as long as there is demand which cannot be met from UK sources.
 
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:iagree:
after all they'll stop at nothing to keep their businesses going - ie producing honey, and one can't put ethics before profit can we ?!!
S

Having seen all the fuss this comment has called.......and despite defense it DOES sound more like a statement than simple personal opinion...........I cannot see why it was given any more attention than it deserved......like zilch.

I am at peace with my ethics. My clients are at peace with my ethics, including some of the best brand names in the land. My suppliers ditto. My landowners and managers the same. The large number of beekeepers who come to me for supplies and bees likewise. The largest packer in the country is pleased to carry OUR name on the back label as the source of their honey.

As regards producing honey being at odds with ethics and quality bee management? Well that is downright laughable.

The only bees that give a good honey crop, year on year, in sufficient amounts to keep the roof over your head are WELL MANAGED bees. If we do not keep our bees healthy, and in a fit condition, then we go bust. So we HAVE to do it correctly. A bad commercial beekeeper does not stay a commercial beekeeper for long.

We have no incentive to play Russian roulette with our bees genetics and temperament. We know we are not through long years of experience, thousands upon thousands of hive/seasons.

Insofar as judgement is pronounced on the ethos under which Dan and I keep our bees goes, well Somerford has no experience of either place, and I suspect may never have met either of us.

I have had long experience of dealing with such statements, including the very strange reasoning of a certain beekeeper in Arizona, who makes outrageous claims, and when you query them, the person concerned, and their cohorts, come down on you with a torrent of questions and even accusations, but crucially, when you sort out the wheat from the chaff, no actual answer to your intial question. The reason for raising this is that on Bee-L all hell broke loose over similar stuff. The concensus there is that the one who makes the claim/allegation/insinuation is the one who has to justify or retract. Dan took offense at the statement and I can understand why, and to turn round and ask him, who remember made no claim, to justify HIMSELF, is a perverse twisting of reason. The onus is on Somerford to reach accomodation with Dan.


Not with me, as I am not actually at all bothered. I have said already, I know what I do, and am secure with the fact that the bees welfare is, of necessity, the central plank of our management. Thus not faxed at all by something like that being said, as I know it is said from a position of relative ingorance.

I am rather reminded of an old tv ad for Budweiser, where the old wise chamaeleon and the eager thrusting young one were stiing on their branches, and the young one was getting rather infuriated by the croaking frogs.............and the old one said 'Let it go Louis, Let it go.'...........We could do with a touch of that here.
 
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