Import of NZ bees into UK

[Scutellator]

I wonder how?

You are the one who studied genetics in school, not me. But if you want to know I can tell you. I don't want to be off-topic. Let it discuss in PM or another thread

 

[Finman]

.
Yes, get a bee colony and knock it down with gasoline. It is easy.

 

[DanBee]

One has to accept that ITLD and Dan will never come round to our way of thinking - after all they'll stop at nothing to keep their businesses going - ie producing honey, and one can't put ethics before profit can we ?!!

Can you substantiate this claim? As far as I know we have never met, nor have you seen my bees/beekeeping. On what do you base your accusation?

It's interesting to read Dan's rant/reply...this chap's so entrenched you can't even spot the spoil heap. Hey ho, can't convince everyone...unlike ITLDs fair and reasonable responses.

Many of your replies to ITLD missed the wood for the trees, picking apart sentence by sentence with cheap shots and unfounded claims. That's why several of us keep asking you to read ITLD's replies before responding...

Rant? As I said at the top of my last post, I found your tit-for-tat approach very wearing

Somerford - sometimes it gets tedious picking posts apart line by line. Shall we try your tactic on your posts?

and then I proceeded to reply to your post in your style... surely you recognised that?

Entrenched? As Gavin says this comes down to a disagreement between two opposing views: anti-imports, or pro-imports, and as with all things in the real world there is a broad grey area in between. Whilst there was a distanct lack of facts and prevalence towards hysteria until ITLD joined in, since then there has been an opportunity for both sides to set out their reasons.

What I have asked you in a number of posts here is to provide facts to back up your sometimes very wild accusations, and to listen. You are keen on the "ethics", using simplistic and appealing black & white sentiments, and keen to make comment & accusation without facts or experience. You are keen to ban imports completely, but have totally failed to set out how you would then tackle illegal imports, natural migrations, accidents, and malicious introductions. It doesn't sound like you've thought it through!

Let's have more facts and less emotive grandstanding, eh?

 

[taff..]

taff - yes easy to miss, but from way back

thanks

 

[Somerford]

Dan, we differ so much I hardly deem it necessary to tit for tat with you, as you would only take a contrary view to everything I say.

Why not come out your treetop and admit the fact I raised the issue in a thread instead of it being swept under the carpet is a good thing , however uncomfortable it makes you feel ?

I felt it necessary to reply in the way I did otherwise the responses would get lost against the orginal comments made by others. It is not unique to this thread the way I have responded. No one else has an issue with it to my knowledge.

Regards

S

 

[peteinwilts]

You are keen to ban imports completely, but have totally failed to set out how you would then tackle illegal imports, natural migrations, accidents, and malicious introductions. It doesn't sound like you've thought it through!

excuse me for interjecting between your and somerfords tiff.. I am seeing a circular argument and seeing a great deal of de-ja-vu!

as I have said previously, I am not experienced enough to say whether imports should be banned or not. The idea makes me uncomfortable, but i'll leave the dispute to others with more knowledge...

...However, on your comment, if you do not ban imports, you cannot even start to tackle the illegal.
Ivory, for example. For years illegal poaching for the ivory trade was rife, but it was not until the import and sale was banned, that the illegal poaching started to slow down. Now to buy ivory is as taboo as to buying heroin.

If bees are were prevented from crossing borders legally, they would be more difficult to smuggle.

It is a bit like saying drugs are being smuggled, so why bother making them illegal. It is a really nonsensical argument...

 

[mbc]

Very true Peteinwilts.
Political will to change elements of trade agreements is what is lacking, everything else would follow on.

 

[Somerford]

Thank you Pete for typing what I was thinking over my supper...

S

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Let's have more facts and less emotive grandstanding, eh?

Dan, I think both sides are guilty of this, yourself included. It's understandable, it happens in most empassioned discussions. But I think it's wrong of people to vilify Somerford - he's raised a perfectly legitimate concern and he has a reasonable point of view. To dismiss everbody else's views as factless emotive grandstanding isn't very fair (or accurate).

 

[DanBee]

Somerford - you accused me of

after all they'll stop at nothing to keep their businesses going - ie producing honey, and one can't put ethics before profit can we ?!!

Could you please indicate upon what factual basis you make this allegation, or retract it?

Why not come out your treetop and admit the fact I raised the issue in a thread instead of it being swept under the carpet is a good thing , however uncomfortable it makes you feel ?

I would definitely agree with that, because it has allowed both sides of the argument to be aired but only once ITLD entered the discussion. Before then it was merely rabble-rousing based upon gossip, innuendo, and a whole list of innaccuracies.

One of the dangers of these fora is that they become self-congratulatory if only one side of an argument is ever aired, if there are questions that cannot be asked and valid perspectives that cannot be explored. I read the biobees forum regularly and that is a good case in point.

What I find interesting with this thread is the number of people who were happy to be carried along by the intial wave of sympathy who have since altered their position in light of the facts being aired. This is not to criticise them, for the sentiments were appealing and the issues complex. It is reassuring that when the whole picture was revealed, few still saw the issues in black and white.

I am seeing a circular argument and seeing a great deal of de-ja-vu!

Sorry Pete, and all others getting frustrated, but I surely can't be the only one to notice that Somerford shrugs off facts and contradictions like water off a duck's back when they don't support his point of view, hence I have persued him (and others) for facts and reasons when the arguments were particularly vague or inconsistent. Nothing personal, and no point going round them all again.

 

[chycarne]

ANNOYED RANT,
Can I point out "we" complain about 1 individual who is more or less blamed for the import of Varroa, we panic when AFB or EFB shows up in our area and indeed one keeper on here declares he wont ship out bees from an EFB patch. Yet we seem unable to agree on the fact that imported bees or products caused these problems in the first place. The point is being missed Genetics yes is a seporate issue- Bio security is about stopping disease and foreign "things" changing our biodiversity. If we dont want overseas problems coming in, stop importing until you can clear the incoming from illness and etc. If genetics is your concern well it is way too late for that there are a number of different races already. We can try to breed up purer strains and we can try to breed out that which we dont like. I think this is best along with selecting for bee traits we want as beekeepers. I like the AMM strain and I like the Carnie type for me one will support the other in what we are going to do. if I thought other strains would add desirable charactoristics I would add them in at a different site and experiment. I will always buy British Bees ie bees from the UK area born and raised in that area and for me ideally 2nd genoration so raised. I will not buy from abroad. For me it is simple dont bring in what you dont understand, if you think the NZ strains is ex UK and ok to bring home if you like then do so, I think you are probably right. If you are imprting make B... sure they are clean bees, if you cant quaranteen(?) the I feel you shouldnt do it... two invasive plants in this country Cane toads in Australia surely by now we must realise the right thing in the wrong place will be a problem to deal with later. We will do all we can for our bees. As a specie they are already evolved and different from 20 years ago due to meddling. Breeding back to purity and or breeeding up the strains are very good noble ideas, however we must also have bees that do what we need them to. This means working with what we have, breeding bees for our environments. AMM is best suited to Maritime on the western fringes and perhaps the higlands. the Italians / Carnies perhaps more to central uk with even perhaps a north-south split bteween their "best" habitats. Imports, well if you trust your bees with a foriegn set fine but dont ask me to and dont come running to me when yours go down with fearsome lergies. Stop picking personal arguments and stick to the subject - Bioprotection and what do you expect to achieve.

 

[DanBee]

If bees are were prevented from crossing borders legally, they would be more difficult to smuggle.

I agree on that point, but it can only apply to ports and intended entry points, rendering even the most rigorous of checks flawed. Bees can't be shut in fields and certainly don't respect boundaries - whether hedgerows or lines drawn on maps. They will move of their own accord, which was the point I was getting at, particularly as it means we have to accept that bees (and their accompanying pests & diseases) will drift and spread.

This is what has been seen in every country following the arrival of varroa - usually movement of bees is severely controlled or banned as a first response, but still the mite has spread. Some of the cases have been accidental - the introducion into Germany, for instance - some have been through lack of understanding - the initial 'hop' from A. cerana to A. mellifera - and some quite possibly has been through malice - I mentioned earlier one of the stories which arose following the discovery of Varroa in the UK in '92.

At no point have I argued for controls of imports of bees or queens to be slackened. What I have said is that it's far more complex than just saying "ban all imports". I share many of the concerns regarding the risks of importing - after all, that's how SHB and Varroa must have got to Hawaii - but also am realistic enough to see that if you shut off the legal supply routes without creating alternative local supply to match demand, then imports will necessarily continue illegally.

So to ensure a lack of demand for imports, how do we establish sufficient home-grown bees and queens to meet demand for various strains and crosses to match all preferences? Or, to ask it another way, what's prevented it happening in the past?

 

[honeylover]

I'm so shiny new to the beekeeping world that I don't even own bees yet (so please be nice!) but this situation made me think about situations within work which I am familiar with.

If any of you give blood you may have noticed the rule that if you have ever received a blood transfusion then you can never give blood. This is because the health service realised that, although we're pretty good at testing for diseases, sometimes we can't screen for a disease because we don't even know that it exists yet. Therefore to make sure that diseases we don't know about yet aren't passed on through blood transfusions this rule exists.

It therefore makes me worried for bees that we humans are still being so conceited as to think that we can mess about with moving bees here, there and everywhere and that this is ok because we can check the bees for disease. I'm sure that we can check them but only for problems that we know about. I worry that we are storing up yet more problems for our honeymaking friends and from my classes and reading it appears that we've already caused them enough grief.

Anyway back to my lurking on the forum absorbing knowledge until I'm a proper beekeeper.

 

[Poly Hive]

I for one am bamboozled here. Which "one" person is supposed to brought in varroa? And no names are required.

My understanding is it arrived via container probably on a swarm.

I read that when it was discovered and people really started looking it was found around freight terminals, but it was not deeply reported in Scotland at the time so I may be mistaken on this.

If people are prevented from crossing borders legally (which they are) how is it so much money is made smuggling them in? Sorry but get real. If you can smuggle people by the hundreds, one queen in a match box is simple. All too simple.

PH

 

[Somerford]

Danbee said a few pages back ....

""Stopping bee imports/exports is a simplistic and knee-jerk reaction. At best it will buy time, but once the pest is established this will be an irrelevance. In the meantime, we lose out on the benefits of queen raising in better climates. It has been said time and again that the UK cannot produce enough good queens at the right time of year to satisfy demand. This example of the Coop simply underlines this fact. Until there are sufficient home-grown breeding/raising/rearing operations that can satisfy the level of demand, timing, and health assurances that ITLD describes, then there will always be circumstances for importing queens.""

Well I Beg to differ. This whole bunkum that you can't raise a queen ready for when you want it...whatever happened to making /raising nucs towards the end of the season, over wintering them (I know at least 1 beekeeper who does this on a semi-commercial basis very successfully) and BINGO, you have new queens ready the next season, complete with attendant bees ready to romp away into the spring and the main flow.....it all comes down to planning and looking ahead. And if the nucs are surplus to requirements, you either unite or sell them on (obviously labelling them as British or otherwise)

regards

S

 

[Skyhook]

I for one am bamboozled here. Which "one" person is supposed to brought in varroa? And no names are required.

My understanding is it arrived via container probably on a swarm.
PH

I have had it said to me that it started off in certain mating apiaries on dartmoor, from imported breeding stock. I have no idea as to the accuracy of this.

 

[tonybloke]

I've heard of swarms of bees on shipping arriving in the town's port, flew off before anyone could 'take' them. bio-security?
the way some folk on here are going on, perhaps we should close the ports, airports, and flood the tunnel !!

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have had it said to me that it started off in certain mating apiaries on dartmoor, from imported breeding stock. I have no idea as to the accuracy of this.

Torbay....not on Dartmoor.

 

[RoofTops]

It was originally discovered in the Torbay area by a beekeeper who I coincidently spent my lunch hour with today moving paving slabs in our branch apiary. This is nowhere near bee flying distance of Dartmoor unless you are standing from the view point of Mars.

Shortly after the first identification varroa was rapidly found in a number of locations across the southern UK. These locations were not contiguous and the inference is it arrived by some or several mechanisms to a number of points over a short period of a year or so.

 

[chycarne]

I've heard of swarms of bees on shipping arriving in the town's port, flew off before anyone could 'take' them. bio-security?
the way some folk on here are going on, perhaps we should close the ports, airports, and flood the tunnel !!

almost a tempting thought, it would never work where would I get my brandy from? and some of the chocolate I like? terrible thoughts...
no we cant go back, no I dont know what the answer is, but as I have said I will use what I can get and keep to local strains well Welsh and South West anyway. so long as no one nearby b***s things up I will be happy. But I think we should try, though to be honest while some dont want to then it wont work, end of discussion really. In this case a majority isnt good enough.... and I am repeating my self now so... I think this is one area I will give up on, interesting set of arguments / discussions but as I was saying we already have the problem how we manage it is more important and how we take the bees forward. I will do what I can my way, my wife more or less agrees so I guess I should say our way... James Kilty and Rodger Dewhurst will be doing their best with their programmes as will several other bee IMPROVEMENT groups and good luck to us all.