Import of NZ bees into UK

[chycarne]

The bee lines are seporate strains, and crossing produces interesting results, which confirms their genetic seporation. I would say 50% turn out ok, 25% are interesting either with good or bad traits and 25% are er challanging. This is why a lot of keepers tend to keep to one line as the chances of producing gits is high enough to discourage most. They are not exotic however.

 

[Somerford]

Skyhook - a fair point. Let me enlarge on this.

If, as one imagines to be able to market their queens/packages as, for example, NZ Carniolans, they have to make sure that the genes are protected from the original breeder queen(s).

The only sure fire way to do this is either to have very isolated mating sites or use AI.

If one was to sequence the genes of the available queens, I wouldn't be surprised if alot could be traced back to one or two originally imported into NZ....and therein lies the problem. To prevent genetic defects, you need to have diversity, and although the drone is a fatherless bee, it is very possible a drone could mate, or be AI mated with a daughter of it's father.

Yes, this could happen on the wing too, but the queen mates with mutliple drones, so there is a greater chance the sperm comes from a drone produced ion another hive.

It makes me shudder to think these bees have been bred to loose all their natural instincts....ie the need to control them when opening the hive...and as Admin stated earlier, the first/2nd generation offspring can be a shocker...2 years of awful beekeeping anyone ??

regards

S

 

[Hombre]

Not 100% decided yet. All depends on the health certificate, how reliable I think that is, and the cost. They are after all only the starter bees, after 6 weeks all the bees will be descendants of the queen. I have several offers. I will not buy bees without a reliable health certificate.

I can assure you absolutely it is not New Zealand. Air freight cost is extreme.

May I go on record as saying that I am suitably impressed with your coolness under often hostile fire and that a health certificate is not considered a guarantee of good health in your opinion (due diligence).

That your packages are not purported to come from NZ is also a great relief.

The fact that you have knowingly entered the forum and put your case clearly and calmly speaks volumes for your professionalism. I look forward to taking up your open offer to seek an arranged visit later in the season.

 

[DanBee]

but wouldnt most of us be happy if the co-op turned around and said we will do are part ,,,take as many breeding stock of amms as we can get hold of this year push this to the pubic with bbka and every other club behind them smiles on all faces yes profit will not be as big as they hope for,, but sell alot more and alot let hassel

Where's the business model? They're doing this to produce British honey that is traceable from hive to jar, not to rear queens. After all, they'd be hostages to the British weather and competing with all the exporters in much better climates

Somebody many pages back was complaining that nucs are too expensive and should only be about £45 to stimulate demand - who knows what the price of queens would drop to then. A fiver? Given that beekeepers always want things free, how much return are the Coop going to see for their investment?

 

[BobH1]

People are talking as though NZ bees are a separate exotic strain. Am I missing something? I have heard people talk about NZ italians, NZ carnolians, ITLD says his are from an alpine strain. Surely these are no different genetically from the ubiquitous italians, carnolians etc that most people have already? I understand the biosecurity argument, but it seems that these are being imported 'by the book'; so I'm not sure what makes this more of a target than the other 95% of bee imports that will happen this year, as has happened every year since Isle of White disease, when AMM was almost wiped out, and beekeepers restocked with italian yellow bees.

I agree. The only thing that has been said about these bees is that they are calm!

 

[Erichalfbee]

We don't know if he said this. But the genes were released in error by a technician who misunderstood what to do. So, he did initially try to keep the AHB as a separate entity. It was an experiment that went horribly wrong and Kerr said many years later that he often contemplated suicide because of all the trouble it caused.

I was unaware of this so looked it up. Here is a map showing how Africanised bees have spread



Winter temperatures are stopping any more northward movement.

 

[RoofTops]

The genes of Africanised Bee are getting diluted more and more as it goes north.

 

[BobH1]

But it's still killing people in Georgia! (" In October 2010, a 73-year-old man was killed by a swarm of Africanized honey bees while clearing brush on his south Georgia property, as determined by Georgia's Department of Agriculture" [Wikipedia])

But we should be complaining about any sort of Apis Melifera in the Americas. All our problems are the result of man's ill considered forced migration of the western honey bee around the world

 

[DanBee]

Somerford - sometimes it gets tedious picking posts apart line by line. Shall we try your tactic on your posts?

And presumably this will recur yearly as you requeen or are you setting up a localised breeding programme ?

'presumably' and your tone indicates that you've decided already.

It is inevitable that big business has it's feelers everywhere....I should know I used to work for the biggest of them !

An "evil big business" conspiracy... Conspiracy theories are the last resort for weak arguments.

Where have I said I believe in the A.M.M.? I believe in halting further imports of foreign bees with genes that are different from our own,

Can you prove the genetic makeup of your bees?

from climates that are different,

We don't know if they are coming from North or South island. Parts of NZ have climate similar to the UK. Some (many?) areas are exposed to maritime influences, just like ourselves

from areas that may or may not have worse diseas control than our own.

Well that's hardly a qualified assessment, is it? "may or may not" but still the mud-slinging of "disease" takes place... Read what ITLD has said regarding health certificates and UK bees, and that all the NZ bees have a clean bill of health.

I think I have been pretty clear about this.

Yes, you'd made your mind up when you started the thread, even in the absence of key facts.

I don't think one should mix up the aims and objectives of Plan B and try to make your project's aims somehow tally with them on the pretext about calm bees.

How many recent aspirant beekeepers have been put off by crap bees, expensive bees, or unobtainable bees? I can see these docile European-derived bees being very good PR for the Coop, and I can see a lot of non-blinkered beekeepers saying "I'd like bees like those".

The facts remain that the bees will not be British and therefore not representative of the bees they will likely keep in the future.

You want it both ways, don't you? Flooding the area with imported drones will drastically dilute all the local mongrel genes, yet the impact of these drones is so low that ITLD will struggle to maintain the traits of the imported stocks? Square peg, round hole, my friend.

Now we're talking. I, like many others, have long suspected this....and I appreciate you being candid in your previous posts.

Translation: oh goody, more mud to sling!

I was merely pointing out to other readers the side of the fence and which camp you're with !

I think the line "I am the beekeeper involved in this project" in ITLD's first post rather gave the game away, no?

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I'd like to point out to those readers who are still undecided that Somerford appears to be somewhat against the idea of imports

err - now you are totally wrong here. I employ foreign people, drive a foreign car, am not a member of the BNP or UKIP. My last job involved much travel to the Indian sub-continent, and importing of goods from 3 Asian countries.

So if you're so multi-cultural and multi-national in your everyday life, why the random ultra-patriotic stance on honeybees?

But I agree, UNNOTIFIED shipments are under the radar....and highly illegal, at least your shipments are certified, but that doesn't make it right!

Hang on, I think you're starting to listen...

Interesting - I have yet to speak to any media/journalists or even write an email....they have got this from someone else...I am not the only one here who is banging the drum Murray !

I think others are right: there's so much positive news in this whole story, and even then any publicity is good publicity. It follows neatly on the heels of lots of PR for bumblebees being reintroduced from NZ. Surely in the eyes of Joe Public this is doing something: some bees is better than no bees, and they all know bees have been having problems. Here's the Coop doing something rather than just whining and asking the government for money...

In post #1, I shared what I had been told and that was right at the time....

In light of the facts that ITLD introduced, whole swathes of it were wrong:

nature of the bees - packages vs. queen imports
source of the bees - you hinted strongly at Mike Roberts
true source of bees - seems ITLD knows exactly what he's getting
placement of hives - "300+ colonies on [one] site"

So how can you say you were right all along?! Just because they were gossip & rumour, that didn't make them correct at any point. Facts are facts!

I was prepared to stick my neck out and raise the issue.

You make it sound like a act of civil generosity, but to me it sounded more like a campaigner looking for a campaign.

So some of the facts have changed, I accept that,

No, the facts were always there, waiting to be heard. What the thread started with was rumour, speculation, implication, and incitement. It took the arrival of ITLD with those facts to turn this into a discussion rather than a moralistic witch hunt.

but I still do not accept the fundamental issue at stake - that of bee imports in these times when we should be doing all we can to secure our bio-security.

Fine, your opinion, I think we'd picked up on that point already though. Imposing your view on others isn't the way it works, however strongly you feel about the cause. Care to comment on the international trade situation that you'd have to tackle to stop imports?

I look forward to an apology about my supposed 'anti foreign' stance!

In light of the facts, I don't think you deserve one!

 

[Into the lions den]

And presumably this will recur yearly as you requeen or are you setting up a localised breeding programme ?


It is inevitable that big business has it's feelers everywhere....I should know I used to work for the biggest of them !



Where have I said I believe in the A.M.M.? I believe in halting further imports of foreign bees with genes that are different from our own, from climates that are different, from areas that may or may not have worse diseas control than our own. I think I have been pretty clear about this. I don't think one should mix up the aims and objectives of Plan B and try to make your project's aims somehow tally with them on the pretext about calm bees. The facts remain that the bees will not be British and therefore not representative of the bees they will likely keep in the future.


Now we're talking. I, like many others, have long suspected this....and I appreciate you being candid in your previous posts.



I was merely pointing out to other readers the side of the fence and which camp you're with !




err - now you are totally wrong here. I employ foreign people, drive a foreign car, am not a member of the BNP or UKIP. My last job involved much travel to the Indian sub-continent, and importing of goods from 3 Asian countries. But I agree, UNNOTIFIED shipments are under the radar....and highly illegal, at least your shipments are certified, but that doesn't make it right!



Interesting - I have yet to speak to any media/journalists or even write an email....they have got this from someone else...I am not the only one here who is banging the drum Murray !



In post #1, I shared what I had been told and that was right at the time....I was prepared to stick my neck out and raise the issue. So some of the facts have changed, I accept that, but I still do not accept the fundamental issue at stake - that of bee imports in these times when we should be doing all we can to secure our bio-security.


Drive safely

I look forward to an apology about my supposed 'anti foreign' stance!

Somerford

Hi again.

Points in sequence.

1. Locally bred queens from the best selected colonies will be used in almost all cases for the following years. We graft from the best hives we find daily up here throughout May and the first half of June. those lots of bees needing to be absolutely maintaind as totally calm, such as for school visits MAY need requeening with further purchased queens. However the minimum viable order from NZ is 300 and i would be hoping to avoid that.

2. I dont think it is anyones 'feelers'. Someone has probably taken it upon themselves to try to help you.

3. Your position on 'British Bees' and A.m.m. are tantamount to the same thing. you maybe do not actually say it, but by default that is what the result would be.

4. Ban the trade and it just goes underground and totally uncontrolled. Has happened before and will happen again. Create an artificial shortage and DIY imports WILL fill the void. For those making a living out of this ( one of my private mails called me and all commercially minded beekeepers 'an obscene abberation') it can come down to a choice of get queens and keep a roof over your head, or lose the house.

5. You said I had taken the Co-ops shilling. That is a figure of speech used in specific circumstances, and is not a benign remark. Of course I am in favour of the project. It is forward looking and exciting to me. I am an active participant and am going to enjoy it.

6. Free trade is a great thing in my book. My life is greatly enriched by it, and the multi national workforce we use here. It also stops UK suppliers holding us to ransom. Unnotified shipments from third countries are utterly illegal and correctly should be cracked down upon. they are also most likely extremely rare. From within the EU it is much greyer, and if for example we should not buy bees from say Poland or Denmark, what price say Norfolk or Kent? Is the risk any greater? Not really. Probably should be full auditable trail of certification for ANY bee sales, but that would be very costly to implement and very hard for people to work with.

7. I did not say who had spoken to the media, I do not know, and I suspect the Co-op do not know either. However someone has.

8. I fully accept that you are not anti foreign per se............but when it comes to bees there is some grounds for arriving at the opinion, and they ARE the subject matter that was under discussion. I would being an awful pedant if I felt the need to reiterate that every time I posted.

Just back from a big meeting about our sterilising plant.........very interesting.

 

[BKF Admin]

One of my concerns is the whispers I have picked up regards queens being shipped from area's that are banned from sending bees to the uk only to be sent from an allowed destination.

If there is money to be made you will always get a few that will take short cuts in the name of profit.

I am not in anyway saying that the co-op could be caught up in such scams but I am aware that its being monitored.

 

[Into the lions den]

I agree. The only thing that has been said about these bees is that they are calm!

Not so. yes they are calm, but they are also very industrious, great comb builbers, hardy, and have overwintered well. This has already been stated.

If you look in the photos each has a caption. Look at the yield for Glenfenzie. Bear in mind that the figure is for heather alone.

 

[Into the lions den]

One of my concerns is the whispers I have picked up regards queens being shipped from area's that are banned from sending bees to the uk only to be sent from an allowed destination.
.

I know of at least one such scheme in recent years. It was nipped in the bud and I do not know if any ever made it to the UK. The scheme was for supply throughout northern Europe.

 

[Into the lions den]

Spring will tell" About the same time the shipments arrive.

Sorry. I think you misunderstand.

The crosses from these precise queens have been on the go since last July. In terms of temperament they seem just fine. 'Spring will tell' is really about the whole panoply of characteristics.

Everyone seems to assume, on the basis of wherever they got the original idea (I suspect Beowulf Coopers writings), that these crosses will be nasty, or at the very least be nastier than they are used to. I have already stated that I had had something like 10,000 similar crosses in my lifetime in my unit, and there is no aggression noted beyond that that local A.m.m. already exhibits.

A stroppy hive can crop up anywhere. Butt end of the hive tool and unite a nuc from another strain to it is fast and effective. Almost never had such a case outwith out local blacks, and even then it has maybe happened once a year..........so 1 in more than 1000.

 

[Into the lions den]

Skyhook - a fair point. Let me enlarge on this.

If one was to sequence the genes of the available queens, I wouldn't be surprised if alot could be traced back to one or two originally imported into NZ....and therein lies the problem.

snip

It makes me shudder to think these bees have been bred to loose all their natural instincts....ie the need to control them when opening the hive...S

Interesting. Another couple of leaps of imagination out of left field.

First one. The bees in question are not, as has been said all along, of NZ bloodlines. They are German insitute originating and were/are maintained by semen imports from Germany. How you feel this can be traced back to one or two queens imported to New Zealand I do not know.

Second;-
Bred to lose *all* their natural instincts??? They are very gentle and do not sting unless sorely provoked, like when you nip one with your fingers when lifting a comb out. TRULY gentle native bees are the holy grail sought by breeders of that type. Do you WANT feisty bees?

Which other natural instincts are you thinking of that they have been bred to lose? I cannot think of ANY.

 

[gavin]

Hi ITLD

I respect your judgement on a whole raft of things, but the issue of temper worries me.

As dark colour is dominant I suspect that the definition you are using for 'local blacks' is rather a broad one. Any bee race can be bred for docility, productivity and disease resistance. All races come with some baggage of course - for Amm it may be chalkbrood susceptibility, for Am carnica it seems to be swarminess. However any mixing of the western lineage of Apis mellifera (ie Amm) and an eastern lineage such as A m ligustica or A m carnica has the reputation of giving rise to tetchy offspring, usually in the second rather than the first generation. That view is so widespread I'm inclined to believe it, and it doesn't just come from Beowulf Cooper but recent observers too. Of course there are other tetchy stocks around too, but in general this mixing adds to it, perhaps seriously.

Time and time again beekeepers have imported highly bred, exciting new wonder-bees, and time and time again they ultimately caused more problems than they solved. To maintain any particular bee type in any mixed area you need a degree of selection plus one of two things - force of numbers or isolation for breeding lines. The only alternative is to legislate or otherwise cajole to prevent unwanted races - whichever ones they may be - from being raised in your area. In the meantime, no new bee has a long-term future unless there is a breeding effort behind it (or continued purchase of new queens), and if you are going to go to that effort it makes more sense to go with the existing genetics rather than fight it.

Personally I think that the black bees you have seen have not been pure stocks bred for docility. They may have been unimproved long-established stocks, or stocks which were derivatives of crosses with imports. It is hard to tell a native-looking hybrid backcross from a pure native stock without the help of a microscope or at least a slide projector.

Whether Middle (or Western!) England is ready to be fully converted to Carniolans is not something I can tell. I'm pretty sure that Aberdeenshire isn't. To some extent this is a clash between philosophies - that of the stockholder who simply wants the easiest to manage and the most productive stocks, and wants them now, and that of the other kind who values tradition, native biodiversity, and sees value in what has always been here. Bee farmers, just like the smaller scale beekeeper, come in both flavours.

Blame me for the 'lost all defence' misunderstandings. I could have worded that better. Enjoy your travels and take care to pick an isolated spot for all that snoring!

G.

 

[Hughesie]

Isn't about time this thread was finally ended , I am fed up of reading how ones right and every other bugger is wrong .

H

 

[bee crazy]

Hi guys

i just want to ask about pollinatoin contracts with the co-op if all these bees are being brought in then surely the beekeepers that have provided pollination for the co-op are not going to get these contracts again so the Brit BEEK will lose again.

Also you say that you tried to source these bees from the UK but with no succes! who did you ask? (i did'nt get a call LOL)

I have to be honest and say that i think this is a bit of cop-out by the co-op and it looks like they have just gone for the most cost effective way to get bees

 

[Hughesie]

Hi guys

i just want to ask about pollinatoin contracts with the co-op if all these bees are being brought in then surely the beekeepers that have provided pollination for the co-op are not going to get these contracts again so the Brit BEEK will lose again.

Also you say that you tried to source these bees from the UK but with no succes! who did you ask? (i did'nt get a call LOL)

I have to be honest and say that i think this is a bit of cop-out by the co-op and it looks like they have just gone for the most cost effective way to get bees

Have you read any of the other posts , You will shortly be told you are wrong !

 

[Somerford]

Have you read any of the other posts , You will shortly be told you are wrong !

I also think Gavin's points are well worth a re-read, well put.

One has to accept that ITLD and Dan will never come round to our way of thinking - after all they'll stop at nothing to keep their businesses going - ie producing honey, and one can't put ethics before profit can we ?!!

It's interesting to read Dan's rant/reply...this chap's so entrenched you can't even spot the spoil heap. Hey ho, can't convince everyone...unlike ITLDs fair and reasonable responses.

I do think that ITLD is pecking at stones around the picky point about the NZ gene pool - whether they come from NZ...or is it now Germany...they will have some commonality in their gene pool and most likely some interbreeding along the way. The country source matters little - they are all foreign.

Why should I be 'anti foreign' bees when I am not in other areas of my life ?

Well, put it this way...I remember well the vivid buring pyres around 1999/2000 with foot and mouth, I continue to hear about dairy farms on standstill due to TB, I listen to friends who produce 16000 eggs a day and empathise with their concerns about bio-security, I ponder the wisdom of a 'level playingfield' in the EU when some players clearly don't either play by the rules or even admit there is a rule book.

Bio-security IS an issue. It IS important. To justify bee imports from a soley commercial view is, in my opinion, blinkered. From a purely commercial perspective, installing 600 queens, with a good few frames of local bees guarantees at least some honey in the first year, or at least I'd be surprised if that isn't the plan.....but at what cost.

I also think the point about the carbon footprint of the whole operation (nationalities of the components aside) is a concern and one that would take alot of explaining...

...perhaps Murray will mitigate it by useing a webcam operation to direct from Perthshire rather than clocking up car/airmiles flying south ?

regards

S