Immediate Demaree?

[pargyle]

It's a very unwise move to try and 'force' an early Demarree, especially when you haven't really enough brood to fill one deep. you are splitting your workforce of nurse bees when they have very few to spare, even if they do make QC's (I'm assuming by your mention of drones you plan to make increase)the paucity of nurse bees will mean they will be pretty poor.

What's the expression I was looking for ... ? Ah I remember now ...

Fools rush in where Jenkins fears to tread .....

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Thanks all... nurse bees are the area of awareness that needs attending to then. There will be a balance between those attending to the now heavy capped and emerging population above and those dealing with pre-lay cell preparation and post lay egg maintenance e.g. brood food. I've read a little but no way enough, on this early stage in terms of housekeeping for non-foragers (Cushman's "Early life of the honey bee egg" for example) but my limited husbandry knowledge and intuition (always dangerous) whispers the logic that nursing ie dealing with hatchlings, newly emerging bees, takes the brunt of effort and numbers over early stage task attendance? Or is that just a wild assumption?

But this "rushing fool" is going to persevere with the one colony and see what happens, fully prepared for problems as with any experiment. Contemplating on this, I think I'll check on frame populations in both BBs on a weekly basis (I know one of the standard benefits of Demaree is the lack of need to check the lower n BB with HM doing the business in all that space at least until a frame manoeuvre 'roll' is necessary) and look carefully if activity in both chambers looks healthy when it comes to nurse bee, numbers and behaviour.

PS I'm particularly interested to see what happens with the super, remember it was fully drawn but empty. In theory there should be no change as one imagines the foragers will operate independently to serve the strong flow thats on. Might the younger nurses stay so for longer before their move to foragers? Nectar and pollen is coming at such a rate in this flow I doubt I'll see the difference. But if the JBM fears are founded, what will we see?

 

[pargyle]

Go for it .... I've rescinded my membershiip of the square wheel and flat earth society so they are getting a bit short of members but I'll put you forwards if you like - should fit in well

 

[jeff33]

What if it was a double brood with 13 frames of brood?
Apologies for jumping on the thread.

I would change my bees for something more adapted to my local forage/conditions

 

[Curly green finger's]

I would change my bees for something more adapted to my local forage/conditions

Where would I find them I have Carnica one side of the hill and bucks the other
Ow well hopefully 40/50 colonys up her will change things.

 

[jeff33]

Where would I find them I have Carnica one side of the hill and bucks the other
Ow well hopefully 40/50 colonys up her will change things.

Sounds a bit like my neck of the woods!!

 

[Curly green finger's]

Sounds a bit like my neck of the woods!!

I remember you saying
You've got to laugh!

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks all... nurse bees are the area of awareness that needs attending to then. There will be a balance between those attending to the now heavy capped and emerging population above and those dealing with pre-lay cell preparation and post lay egg maintenance e.g. brood food. I've read a little but no way enough, on this early stage in terms of housekeeping for non-foragers (Cushman's "Early life of the honey bee egg" for example) but my limited husbandry knowledge and intuition (always dangerous) whispers the logic that nursing ie dealing with hatchlings, newly emerging bees, takes the brunt of effort and numbers over early stage task attendance? Or is that just a wild assumption?

But this "rushing fool" is going to persevere with the one colony and see what happens, fully prepared for problems as with any experiment. Contemplating on this, I think I'll check on frame populations in both BBs on a weekly basis (I know one of the standard benefits of Demaree is the lack of need to check the lower n BB with HM doing the business in all that space at least until a frame manoeuvre 'roll' is necessary) and look carefully if activity in both chambers looks healthy when it comes to nurse bee, numbers and behaviour.

PS I'm particularly interested to see what happens with the super, remember it was fully drawn but empty. In theory there should be no change as one imagines the foragers will operate independently to serve the strong flow thats on. Might the younger nurses stay so for longer before their move to foragers? Nectar and pollen is coming at such a rate in this flow I doubt I'll see the difference. But if the JBM fears are founded, what will we see?

Please do let us know how you get on and how it all turns out.

 

[elainemary]

Thanks all... nurse bees are the area of awareness that needs attending to then. There will be a balance between those attending to the now heavy capped and emerging population above and those dealing with pre-lay cell preparation and post lay egg maintenance e.g. brood food. I've read a little but no way enough, on this early stage in terms of housekeeping for non-foragers (Cushman's "Early life of the honey bee egg" for example) but my limited husbandry knowledge and intuition (always dangerous) whispers the logic that nursing ie dealing with hatchlings, newly emerging bees, takes the brunt of effort and numbers over early stage task attendance? Or is that just a wild assumption?

But this "rushing fool" is going to persevere with the one colony and see what happens, fully prepared for problems as with any experiment. Contemplating on this, I think I'll check on frame populations in both BBs on a weekly basis (I know one of the standard benefits of Demaree is the lack of need to check the lower n BB with HM doing the business in all that space at least until a frame manoeuvre 'roll' is necessary) and look carefully if activity in both chambers looks healthy when it comes to nurse bee, numbers and behaviour.

PS I'm particularly interested to see what happens with the super, remember it was fully drawn but empty. In theory there should be no change as one imagines the foragers will operate independently to serve the strong flow thats on. Might the younger nurses stay so for longer before their move to foragers? Nectar and pollen is coming at such a rate in this flow I doubt I'll see the difference. But if the JBM fears are founded, what will we see?

Hi, think the only risk, as others have implied, is with a sudden cold snap over the next few days you get some chilled brood either in the bottom box or some dead capped brood - not being adequately covered by bees - on the edges of your top box, which is why the colony puts drone on the edges, the most dispensable. Might also see 'spotty' brood next time - if the bees can't feed /look after it, they will cannibalise eggs and larva & reduce feeding the queen, so less brood is laid.

This is the time of year when brood can start to outnumber house bees and most of those are getting old with hypopharangeal glands reducing as they focus on foraging rather than feeding, so the colony struggles to feed and cover the brood adequately.

But, you’ve said they’re boiling with bees, so just look for any evidence of pupa being thrown out, or any blackened pupa, or spotty brood on your next inspection. Can only learn from your experiment. They're very good at coping with our decisions!

 

[North End Bees]

There seems to be a decent harvest of new drones from other colonies and that inherent benefit of QCs from a strong hive for increase is in play.

If this colony isn't yet raising drone brood, it doesn't feel ready itself for making increase.

 

[StephenT]

@JonnyPicklechin You’re in Syon Park if I remember right, only a couple of miles away from me as the bee flies. Compared to last spring, the weather has been so much better for the bees to make the most of the abundance of plum and cherry trees around. It’ll be interesting to see how you get on. One of my hives is pretty packed on brood and a half with two supers now and when I inspected it yesterday there was no shortage of drones and play cups. If we were a few weeks further on weather wise, I would give a Demaree a go now but will hold off a few weeks. The swarms I’ve got in the last 2 years have both been about a week into May. Does that mean that a decision to swarm would have been made at least 2 weeks before that?

 

[masterBK]

quote : I wouldn't dream of doing a Demarree on double brood.

I have been running double broods for most of my beekeeping years and I carry out a sort of Demaree on them when they get to about 13 to 16 frames of brood (often reached by end of April/beginning of May depending how the season is going) by putting all the frames of eggs and unsealed brood in the top box and most of the sealed brood in the bottom box (with a drawn empty frame or two in the middle of the broodnest of the bottom box to tide the queen over til more space arises on the frames of emerging brood. Works for me. Rarely get swarm preps these days and it allows me to use the top boxs to finish off cupkits cells and also provide bees to set up the Apidea to take the cupkit cells about two days before emergence.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I carry out a sort of Demaree on them

Which by your description is obviously not a Demarree

 

[masterBK]

Essentially it is as most of the brood (and so most of the brood pheromone) ends up in the top box separated initially by two supers from the queen (and from much of her pheromones) so achieves the same effect. I would call that a "modified Demaree"

 

[Erichalfbee]

Essentially it is as most of the brood (and so most of the brood pheromone) ends up in the top box separated initially by two supers from the queen (and from much of her pheromones) so achieves the same effect. I would call that a "modified Demaree"

Or the MasterBK take on a Demaree

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

@JonnyPicklechin You’re in Syon Park if I remember right, only a couple of miles away from me as the bee flies. Compared to last spring, the weather has been so much better for the bees to make the most of the abundance of plum and cherry trees around. It’ll be interesting to see how you get on. One of my hives is pretty packed on brood and a half with two supers now and when I inspected it yesterday there was no shortage of drones and play cups. If we were a few weeks further on weather wise, I would give a Demaree a go now but will hold off a few weeks. The swarms I’ve got in the last 2 years have both been about a week into May. Does that mean that a decision to swarm would have been made at least 2 weeks before that?

Yes Stephen...8 or 9 hives in Syon and then another 6 or 7 down the road where I live.
You should pop down one day for a field trip....Its a beautiful space....
I had swarm signals end of April 20 which matches pretty close to your experience....Ive got 3 or 4 going gang busters already....

 

[Antipodes]

Essentially it is as most of the brood (and so most of the brood pheromone) ends up in the top box separated initially by two supers from the queen (and from much of her pheromones) so achieves the same effect. I would call that a "modified Demaree"

Do you still find that the bees make demaree supersedure cells up there?

 

[Antipodes]

@JonnyPicklechin You’re in Syon Park if I remember right, only a couple of miles away from me as the bee flies. Compared to last spring, the weather has been so much better for the bees to make the most of the abundance of plum and cherry trees around. It’ll be interesting to see how you get on. One of my hives is pretty packed on brood and a half with two supers now and when I inspected it yesterday there was no shortage of drones and play cups. If we were a few weeks further on weather wise, I would give a Demaree a go now but will hold off a few weeks. The swarms I’ve got in the last 2 years have both been about a week into May. Does that mean that a decision to swarm would have been made at least 2 weeks before that?

I'd expect yes, at least. I have my suspicions (based on what I have seen), that the scout bees sometimes start looking around quite a time before the swarm. I've never made a note of the actual time in weeks unfortunately.

 

[GuyNir]

Which by your description is obviously not a Demarree

Can you specify why what masterBK does isn’t a Demarree? Seem close enough version of a Demarree to me. Open brood on top will pretty much separate the Q and flying bees from the nurse bees.
Is it the fact most of the sealed brood is left at the bottom box?
Thanks.

 

[elainemary]

Can you specify why what masterBK does isn’t a Demarree? Seem close enough version of a Demarree to me. Open brood on top will pretty much separate the Q and flying bees from the nurse bees.
Is it the fact most of the sealed brood is left at the bottom box?
Thanks.

I’d like to know too - thanks