I'll kick this off with Chris's post.

[Beesnaturally]

We don't need to "save the bees" this way so it's optional

Hmmm. If we want to stop the constant corrosion of wild honeybees by unresistant commercial genes, then we do.

If we want to restore to our local ecologies the services that belong there, then we do.

I suppose in theory that everywhere local wild bees are messed up, treatment-addicted bees replace the missing services. But the local adaptation of wild honeybees supplies health that nothing else can match.

IMHO

 

[pargyle]

I'll get the popcorn in then ... Remember folks ... this is in the TREATMENT FREE section so constructive and reflective comments only please ..scorn and derision posts will get deleted and it you persist.. warnings.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'll get the popcorn in then

I think folk are busy elsewhere

 

[Newbeeneil]

I think folk are busy elsewhere

OOOOOh where? I must investigate

 

[Erichalfbee]

OOOOOh where? I must investigate

You've been there

 

[Moobee]

I’ve been beekeeping for 4 years and following the usual treatment path but only using the softer thymol or OA based chemicals. I would love to go treatment free but wanted to get a few years beekeeping experience first (thanks @pargyle great advice).
However, this year, following a brilliant talk by @Steve at Westerham Beeks at our local BKA, we’ve set up a group to investigate if any of us have bees showing hygienic traits that could be monitored and/or used to breed queens from.
I picked up a swarm in June from a shed that has reportedly had feral bees in it for at least 6 years. The owner of the property works from home and has a direct line of sight to the colony entrance and seems to watch them all the time. They threw off several swarms this year (I nearly had the prime but they absconded from my skep!) and I have them in a national with the intention of monitoring them & not treat to see how they do. They’re very calm, built up well & produced a super of honey which I have nadired.

 

[elainemary]

I’ve been ‘testing’ 3 different queen lines of bees in 3 different locations in the last 2 years. So same 3 queen lines in different apiary sites.

I’ve found one site that’s had high varroa in all 3 colonies and when treated with reputable treatment, PMS, DWV and shaking bees caused by a varroa induced virus, soon happened, compromising winter bees.

The same queen lines in the 2 other apiaries have very little varroa even now after a full year. However these 2 apiaries are more remote, with far fewer beekeepers nearby.

My conclusion to date, for this particular very small scale experiment and short timescale, is the ‘environment’ the bees are kept in, has as much influence if not more in my case, as genetics.

I’m a curious hobbyist and will repeat next year and keep monitoring.

I wonder why there are no Nucs or queens, marketed as varroa ‘resistant’? Why don’t those beekeepers who believe they have varroa resistant bees, either sell their queens at a high cost to commercial breeders, or market their successand sell their Nucs? Does the ‘environment’ where the bees are kept, have a much stronger part to play, in keeping bees with low varroa?

 

[rolande]

I’ve been ‘testing’ 3 different queen lines of bees in 3 different locations in the last 2 years. So same 3 queen lines in different apiary sites.

I’ve found one site that’s had high varroa in all 3 colonies and when treated with reputable treatment, PMS, DWV and shaking bees caused by a varroa induced virus, soon happened, compromising winter bees.

The same queen lines in the 2 other apiaries have very little varroa even now after a full year. However these 2 apiaries are more remote, with far fewer beekeepers nearby.

My conclusion to date, for this particular very small scale experiment and short timescale, is the ‘environment’ the bees are kept in, has as much influence if not more in my case, as genetics.

I’m a curious hobbyist and will repeat next year and keep monitoring.

I wonder why there are no Nucs or queens, marketed as varroa ‘resistant’? Why do those beekeepers who believe they have varroa resistant bees, either sell in queens at a high cost to commercial breeders or market their success? Does the ‘environment’ where the bees are kept have a much stronger part to play in keeping bees with low varroa?

There's an interesting piece on apiary specific varroa tolerance towards the end of this Keith Delaplane presentation, but his stuff is always worth watching from the start.

 

[Moobee]

I’ve been ‘testing’ 3 different queen lines of bees in 3 different locations in the last 2 years. So same 3 queen lines in different apiary sites.

I’ve found one site that’s had high varroa in all 3 colonies and when treated with reputable treatment, PMS, DWV and shaking bees caused by a varroa induced virus, soon happened, compromising winter bees.

The same queen lines in the 2 other apiaries have very little varroa even now after a full year. However these 2 apiaries are more remote, with far fewer beekeepers nearby.

My conclusion to date, for this particular very small scale experiment and short timescale, is the ‘environment’ the bees are kept in, has as much influence if not more in my case, as genetics.

I’m a curious hobbyist and will repeat next year and keep monitoring.

I wonder why there are no Nucs or queens, marketed as varroa ‘resistant’? Why don’t those beekeepers who believe they have varroa resistant bees, either sell their queens at a high cost to commercial breeders, or market their successand sell their Nucs? Does the ‘environment’ where the bees are kept, have a much stronger part to play, in keeping bees with low varroa?

I think it might be hard to advertise nucs or queens as varroa resistant as I’m not sure how you could prove it to a potential buyer. I think beeks can be a sceptical lot and probably not keen to part with the extra cash! Things might change in future if more people explore the route of breeding for resistance.

 

[pargyle]

Does the ‘environment’ where the bees are kept, have a much stronger part to play, in keeping bees with low varroa?

I've been treatment free for over 10 years now ... environment does play a part in whether some colonies survive and thrive - but there are many factors that will affect mite levels. The proximity of available forage, how enthusiastic foragers your bees are - the further they fly to overlap other colony areas the more chance they have of gathering mites. Bees strains renowned for robbing are likely to be more susceptible. The hive conditions - higher temperature and humidity in the hive will inhibit the mites ability to successfully breed so well insulated hives will help. Lastly, the bees ... clearly some colonies appear able to manage varroa and others don't. Breed from those that are consistently low in mite loads ... and either be prepared to treat those that are consistently high or face losing them.

The inspection board is not a great help ...proper sugar rolls will tell you what's going on and knowing your bees .. watch for signs of disease or slow down and test when you see any changes in behaviour, rate of queen laying.

You also have to balance this with a light inspection routine .. the more you fiddle with bees (and dragging every frame out every 7 days) stresses the colony. Stressed colonies are more likely to suffer from disease and seem (IMO) to be more prone to mite infestation. I only inspect brood frames - quick look for BIAS, eggs and queen cells and make sure they have sufficient stores for them until the next inspection, then out. I never search for queens or drag every frame out unless there is a very good reason.

I'm foundationless and I allow the bees to build what they see fit. I do feed my bees but only to top up their own stores of honey - I know people say that bees survive just as well on sugar but ... the complex sugars found in honey are their natural food.

I don't know how much of this allows me to remain treatment free ... but certainly location and environment plays a significant part.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

I’ve been ‘testing’ 3 different queen lines of bees in 3 different locations in the last 2 years. So same 3 queen lines in different apiary sites.

I’ve found one site that’s had high varroa in all 3 colonies and when treated with reputable treatment, PMS, DWV and shaking bees caused by a varroa induced virus, soon happened, compromising winter bees.

The same queen lines in the 2 other apiaries have very little varroa even now after a full year. However these 2 apiaries are more remote, with far fewer beekeepers nearby.

My conclusion to date, for this particular very small scale experiment and short timescale, is the ‘environment’ the bees are kept in, has as much influence if not more in my case, as genetics.

I’m a curious hobbyist and will repeat next year and keep monitoring.

I wonder why there are no Nucs or queens, marketed as varroa ‘resistant’? Why don’t those beekeepers who believe they have varroa resistant bees, either sell their queens at a high cost to commercial breeders, or market their successand sell their Nucs? Does the ‘environment’ where the bees are kept, have a much stronger part to play, in keeping bees with low varroa?

Hi Elaine,

There may well be an "environmental effect" of colonies nearby which have low mite defences and/or different mix of drone input in the queens. I can have 2 colonies next to each other with markedly different mite levels. The key is the bees' level of hygienic behaviour against the mites. See all about these traits at: www.varroaresistant.uk

The other part of the problem is that we keep the "low mite defence" colonies alive with treatments, thus perpetuating the issue...... In spring, we would requeen colonies with high mite counts, before the drones are flying. Very quickly you change the apiary dynamics.

Why no sales of resistant nucs / queens? It's still early days and i hear a few breeders are trying with UK bees (too many rely on imported breeder queens). But you need a minimum of 5 years track record of not treating. There are a few commercial beekeepers on the referenced website above, who started off breeding out from local feral swarms (ie; nature had sorted out the "low mite defence" colonies).

Local bees seem to work the best - that's the evidence of every known case study and what we use. That's where the adapted behavioral shift takes place where the bees learn to identify chemical cues from varroa offspring and eggs. So bees needed time (been over 30 years since varroa arrived) and knowledge of the beekeeper to recognise the signs in their colonies.

I see you're in Yorkshire and I'm speaking at Sheffield Beekeepers on 11 October in case you are a member.

Good luck with your monitoring!

Steve

 

[Beesnaturally]

I think its worth taking into account the co-evolutionary dynamics that are a standing feature of predator/prey relationships. There is an evolutionary 'arms race' constantly playing out, particularly in parasitic settings. I think this is seen in the hive strategies that tend to lower mite fecundity. The bees are acting in ways that keep mite levels manageable, but allowing mites to remain present as a defence against incoming high-fecundity mites.

That is likely just one example of the presence of co-evolved parasitic relations in the honeybee; and a resistant local population will likely have several strategies ready to operate, with the most effective at any time rising to the top through natural selection.

This is a second good reason to stay as clear as you can from commercial bees. Not only do you not want their genes, or their mites, you also don't want their mites' genes.

I would never offer resistant queens for sale, because I believe it is the combination of bee behaviours (and perhaps special equipment) AND mite genetics that succeeds. I would offer co-evolved bee-mite packages, ie established (not made-up) nucs.

 

[rolande]

would never offer resistant queens for sale, because I believe it is the combination of bee behaviours (and perhaps special equipment)

I'm interested in hearing more of the special equipment aspect if you have the time.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm interested in hearing more of the special equipment aspect if you have the time.

I was thinking of perhaps (heritable) sensitivities to things like to specific odours, sounds or vibrations. I'd regard those things as enabled by 'special equipment' (until somebody convinces me they are not). Doesn't a behaviour originate in specific proteins that equip the organism with a particular ability?

 

[Dibbler]

I'm really glad I found this thread.
I've never treated any of my hives. 25 years of beekeeping before stroke and 3 years now.
I don't want to treat them. In that time I've lost 2 hives. 1 as it was too small to go through winter. It was a late very small swarm collected from a local church in Lincs.
1 to not enough stores. My bad I should have checked despite the weather.
In Lincs I lived in a very small village surrounded by farmland. Growing peas, beans etc.
I was the only beekeeper for 10 miles. Because of some of the severe winters I wrapped my hives every winter.
I've not done that since moving to Norfolk, but I have some available.
Now I live somewhere a bit bigger. But still surrounded by countryside with lots of foraging opportunities.
There is no one keeping bees that I know of where I live. There is a wild colony in a very high chimney of an old Manor house? ( not sure what the name is ) just down the road.
Our house was built in their old orchard.
No one bothers them and I believe they have had bees in there for over 10 years.
Some are in villages 8 to 12 miles away.
There are 2 commercial beekeepers 7 miles away is the nearest.
I have old hives mainly and they all have sliding inspection trays.
My 2 new hives have mesh floors with yellow inspection trays.
I have had a swarm come to a large yew tree recently but that hive is in a separate area from my main hives.
All my hives are on my own land.
I'm also an organic veg, fruit and flower grower.

 

[Dibbler]

Part 2.
I started keeping bees when I met an older gentlemen at our local primary school fete.
I used to have chickens, ducks the odd lamb. Plus numerous hedgehogs and incredibly badgers used to come and feed.
He asked if I would be interested in keeping bees as he was finding his age was making it difficult.
He helped me for the 1st year then I was on my own.
I love keeping bees, they fascinate me. Honey is a great by product.
I've always fed my bees on the left overs and any comb from extracting.
I'm feeding syrup at the moment to one hive. The one from the yew tree. But their last feed was 2 days ago.
I've since fed them the left overs from my latest extraction.
I don't know if I'm doing right or wrong. All I know is my bees seem calm. They produce lots of honey.
They still fascinate me after all these years. I think they are incredible with all their knowledge and able to produce what the hive needs at any given time.

 

[oxnatbees]

I wonder why there are no Nucs or queens, marketed as varroa ‘resistant’? Why don’t those beekeepers who believe they have varroa resistant bees, either sell their queens at a high cost to commercial breeders, or market their successand sell their Nucs? Does the ‘environment’ where the bees are kept, have a much stronger part to play, in keeping bees with low varroa?

Because most of us are leave-alone hobbyists, not commercial so we rarely do splits, and aren't interested in making nucs. Very very few of us raise queens. Instead we use swarms. The number of swarms seems to drop after a few years, quite likely because the prolific traits reinforced by commercial breeders (ie from Carmiolan genes) fade away.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Because most of us are leave-alone hobbyists, not commercial so we rarely do splits, and aren't interested in making nucs. Very very few of us raise queens. Instead we use swarms. The number of swarms seems to drop after a few years, quite likely because the prolific traits reinforced by commercial breeders (ie from Carmiolan genes) fade away.

I'm not sure your estimation of what "most of us" do is accurate.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm not sure your estimation of what "most of us" do is accurate.

Most TF hobbyists.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Good to hear Dibbler’s story.

There are varroa resistant traits all around the UK, where bees’ hygienic adjustments to mites have taken place. We now know how to identify these traits, from peer reviewed research, and how beekeepers can identify and select for them.

An education / science website was launched last year (www.varroaresistant.uk) led by Emeritus Professor Stephen Martin. And for those interested in the practical guide of “how to do it” for beekeepers, there’s “The Honey Bee Solution to Varroa” published by Northern Bee Books. (Dani / Phil: hope that’s ok to mention)