Hybrids & defensive/aggressive behaviour

[Sutty]

Just musing about this year's beekeeping activities. Debating buying in a couple of queens.
Many years ago I bought a buckfast queen, she was prolific and her workers were calm & gentle - the next generation not so much! Defensive, "following" & stung neighbours some distance away!
I've read since that this is a recognised issue with buckfast hybrids. I'm just wondering if the same applies to other hybrids; eg if I buy a dark amm queen am I likely to get aggression in future hybrids with my darkish local mongrels.
Part of me thinks just keep selecting the best mongrels!

 

[robmort]

I'm on my 3rd generation of hybrid Buckfast and they're just as gentle and prolific as the 1st. I guess there's always a chance a next generation of any bees can be aggressive, but I've had several generations of different breeds which have all been gentle most of the time.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Just musing about this year's beekeeping activities. Debating buying in a couple of queen's.
Many years ago I bought a buckfast queen, she was prolific and her workers were calm & gentle - the next generation not so much! Defensive, "following" & stung neighbours some distance away!
I've read since that this is a recognised issue with buckfast hybrids. I'm just wondering if the same applies to other hybrids; eg if I buy a dark amm queen am I likely to get aggression in future hybrids with my darkish local mongrels.
Part of me thinks just keep selecting the best mongrels!

"SOME" Buckfast following generations. People write a lot of stuff and some of it is crap

 

[Sutty]

"SOME" Buckfast following generations. People write a lot of stuff and some of it is crap

To be fair my nicest mongel queen was superceded by a complete bitch! Luckily the original was also still in residence when I culled the daughter!
Maybe it's a myth?

 

[Antipodes]

To be fair my nicest mongel queen was superceded by a complete bitch! Luckily the original was also still in residence when I culled the daughter!
Maybe it's a myth?

This was raised a while back on the forum and my memory is that the conclusion was (or at least someone authoritatively declared !) that it is not necessarily the case that down the track with future queens they will turn nasty (if starting with calm Italians and Buckfast hybrids etc.). I'm not sure what the thread was now. I had lovely mongrels that turn nasty with the successive queen too.

 

[jarmo henttu]

I'm on my 3rd generation of hybrid Buckfast and they're just as gentle and prolific as the 1st. I guess there's always a chance a next generation of any bees can be aggressive, but I've had several generations of different breeds which have all been gentle most of the time.

If you have a third crossing generation, you have only 12% out of original genes.
It has quite little to do with original buckfast then.

And you know nothing about drones. The queen mates with 15 drones.

 

[Michael Palmer]

First crosses between Italian and Carniolan are often very defensive. Pretty obvious if you have done this. F1+ generations of Texas Buckfasts (before africanization) are sometimes ferocious. We called them ankle biters. Take off the lid and the bees pour out the entrance and up your pants. Once you realize, it's too late. But, the aggression in both groups doesn't last. In a few generations they calm down. In my experience, the Texas Buckfast maintained their resistance to Acarine. That was 25 years ago. The Texas supposed Buckfast stock is so Africanized these days they are to be avoided.

 

[MeAndMyBees]

Just musing about this year's beekeeping activities. Debating buying in a couple of queen's.
Many years ago I bought a buckfast queen, she was prolific and her workers were calm & gentle - the next generation not so much! Defensive, "following" & stung neighbours some distance away!
I've read since that this is a recognised issue with buckfast hybrids. I'm just wondering if the same applies to other hybrids; eg if I buy a dark amm queen am I likely to get aggression in future hybrids with my darkish local mongrels.
Part of me thinks just keep selecting the best mongrels!

Hi there. . .
Personally, I would go with 'local Mongrels' from maybe from your Bee Club / Association. See if someone has some Splits, or own x3 Frames of Bees (Midi-Nuc) with Brood in all Stages Inc. a Queen Cell. Local Bees that over Winter well are worth their weight in Gold.
Too many follow the notion "they must Buy" their Queens ! Or fail.
Believe me, local Bees will be in better harmony to local Weather, Resources, how to Handle them,
to those brought in from far flung places.
So many Beeks lose their Colonies following the "Buckfasts" etc.
Hope this helps. MMB.
Queens in the First Year (F1) are like you say : Gentle.
But offspring Queens (F2) and onwards become "tetchy" and hard to work. . .
Save your £££'s, and Requeen with eg a Split off a local Beekeeper. Do a gradual Combining of Colonies. [Having removed the Original Queen into say a x3 Frame Nuc.]
Maybe raise some own Queen Cells, and Requeen that Nuc.

 

[Antipodes]

We called them ankle biters. Take off the lid and the bees pour out the entrance and up your pants. Once you realize, it's too late.

Agree.... the really bad ones don't fly up to the veil to carry on and warn you first.

 

[Antipodes]

But, the aggression in both groups doesn't last.

Ahh....interesting. Thanks!

 

[elainemary]

Just musing about this year's beekeeping activities. Debating buying in a couple of queen's.
Many years ago I bought a buckfast queen, she was prolific and her workers were calm & gentle - the next generation not so much! Defensive, "following" & stung neighbours some distance away!
I've read since that this is a recognised issue with buckfast hybrids. I'm just wondering if the same applies to other hybrids; eg if I buy a dark amm queen am I likely to get aggression in future hybrids with my darkish local mongrels.
Part of me thinks just keep selecting the best mongrels!

Spot on. Just keep rearing from your best and have zero tolerance on poor behaviour and nip the queen. Always have a plan to have spare queens so you don’t rely on buying in the middle of the season when wait times are too long. Occasionally buy in if you’re not happy with your best genetics. That’s my philosophy. Only ever bought one queen from @mbc

 

[Wilco]

Hi there. . .
Personally, I would go with 'local Mongrels' from maybe from your Bee Club / Association. See if someone has some Splits, or own x3 Frames of Bees (Midi-Nuc) with Brood in all Stages Inc. a Queen Cell. Local Bees that over Winter well are worth their weight in Gold.
Too many follow the notion "they must Buy" their Queens ! Or fail.
Believe me, local Bees will be in better harmony to local Weather, Resources, how to Handle them,
to those brought in from far flung places.
So many Beeks lose their Colonies following the "Buckfasts" etc.
Hope this helps. MMB.
Queens in the First Year (F1) are like you say : Gentle.
But offspring Queens (F2) and onwards become "tetchy" and hard to work. . .
Save your £££'s, and Requeen with eg a Split off a local Beekeeper. Do a gradual Combining of Colonies. [Having removed the Original Queen into say a x3 Frame Nuc.]
Maybe raise some own Queen Cells, and Requeen that Nuc.

You're spouting unsubstantiated nonsense and it's not appropriate to insult a number of the members on here who sell queens.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You're spouting unsubstantiated nonsense and it's not appropriate to insult a number of the members on here who sell queens.

Quite
I've removed reference to one in particular
First post here too.....I do hope we don't have another bored troublemaker in our midst

 

[Curly green finger's]

You're spouting unsubstantiated nonsense and it's not appropriate to insult a number of the members on here who sell queens.

I agree, and I believe the local population isn’t always the best it’s all about selection and being quite ruthless with your stock

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

People write a lot of stuff and some of it is crap

some of it?

 

[robmort]

Hi there. . .
Personally, I would go with 'local Mongrels' from maybe from your Bee Club / Association. See if someone has some Splits, or own x3 Frames of Bees (Midi-Nuc) with Brood in all Stages Inc. a Queen Cell. Local Bees that over Winter well are worth their weight in Gold.
Too many follow the notion "they must Buy" their Queens ! Or fail.
Believe me, local Bees will be in better harmony to local Weather, Resources, how to Handle them,
to those brought in from far flung places.
So many Beeks lose their Colonies following the "Buckfasts" etc.
Hope this helps. MMB.
Queens in the First Year (F1) are like you say : Gentle.
But offspring Queens (F2) and onwards become "tetchy" and hard to work. . .
Save your £££'s, and Requeen with eg a Split off a local Beekeeper. Do a gradual Combining of Colonies. [Having removed the Original Queen into say a x3 Frame Nuc.]
Maybe raise some own Queen Cells, and Requeen that Nuc.

Anyone who says "believe me" is safe to ignore.

 

[Mint Bee]

some local bee genetics are just crap due to ignorant keepers who propagate poor quality bees and allow the drones to continue spreading and perpetuating the crapy genetics. One can either slowly cull out the poor quality queens, or bring in some new queen lines, or a combination of both. Oh and also let the good colonies make plenty of drones, rather than culling the brood.

 

[ericbeaumont]

go with 'local Mongrels' from maybe from your Bee Club / Association

Local Bees that over Winter well are worth their weight in Gold

local Bees will be in better harmony to local Weather, Resources, how to Handle them,
to those brought in from far flung places.

a local Beekeeper

The repetition of local means nothing when imports have for years flavoured UK genetics far and wide in many areas, and yet are used by unaware beekeepers who wish to believe in a mythical undisturbed, stable, consistent genetic mix established over generations.

In fact, those local statements are more misleading and thoughtless than nothing, because they convey the idea that local is always best, irrespective of performance.

local population isn’t always the best it’s all about selection and being quite ruthless with your stock

This is the way to improve stock (without buying in queens regularly).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

One can either slowly cull out the poor quality queens

unfortunately you can't do that with the beekeepers

 

[Swarm]

The repetition of local means nothing when imports have for years flavoured UK genetics far and wide in many areas, and yet are used by unaware beekeepers who wish to believe in a mythical undisturbed, stable, consistent genetic mix established over generations.

In fact, those local statements are more misleading and thoughtless than nothing, because they convey the idea that local is always best, irrespective of performance.


This is the way to improve stock (without buying in queens regularly).

Sadly, the word 'local' is the best we have to describe the bees that live in our area, either that or put up with the 'mongrel' stamp from beekeepers who talk about F2 and F3 of their chosen bee type
In the case of buckfast, a synthetic bee in the first place, it's even more laughable.