How far should bait boxes be from a hive

[JamezF]

With apologies to the OP for taking the thread further off-topic, and to Dani because whilst she used the expression this posting isn't directed at nor intended to malign her, it was just her words that drew me to post further...

"Science can't explain everything" is a claim made ever more regularly in our "post-truth" world. So who gets to decide what exactly "science can't explain"? When someone finds a particular belief they hold dear challenged, they might think it a justifiable response, but what about everyone else who wants to make some different claim about the way the universe works?

Should we also accept the word of someone, or even many someones, who make all kinds of random claims about the world simply because "science can't explain everything"? Or do we need to have some process to evaluate what claims are reasonable for science not to be able to explain and what are just some nutjob mouthing off? How might such a process work? Might it begin by examining the claims to see if other people make the same observations? And then to investigate possible causes of such observations and test whether they can sometimes or even always lead to such observations? And perhaps then to test if those observations might be repeated by completely independent groups of people? Obviously people could be biased to believe or disbelieve the claim and that might distort the conclusions they make, so there'd need to be some way to cancel that effect out, too.

That's a bit wordy, so perhaps we should give the process a shorter name. But hang on, we already have. It's called "The Scientific Method".

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree with a lot of what you say, James. Your point is aptly demonstrated in lots of threads here which end up in ping pong contests over providing scientifically reviewed links to somebody's assertions. However. I'm not trying to convert anybody, simply describing a phenomenon. Stan used to work for the water board where they used and still do use dowsing to find deep water pipes. Dowsing never ever crossed my mind till I kept bees and wondered if there was anything in it for setting up bait hives. I have three sites. Two regularly attract swarms, one never.The one fruitless site is devoid of any energy.
Philip made me some lovely turned dowsing rods handles and wires to try.....
Here you are @pargyle, there's another opportunity for you.

I'm a great fan of verbal history, storytelling, myths and legends. Why is it that so many cultures who could never have communicated with each other many many years ago describe the same stories, legends and mythical creatures? No internet and social media at the dawn of Man's existence.

 

[Boston Bees]

Science isn't about explaining everything. Anyone who thinks that really doesn't understand science. In part (the part that's relevant in this instance), science is a method for obtaining data and drawing conclusions in a way that minimises the opportunity for error and is consistent with what we already know. It's not some mystical thing. It's a process that answers the question "How can I really be sure as possible about this?"

People who believe in ley lines have failed to apply the basic test "Is there some other, and perhaps simpler, way to explain these observations?". And as it turns out there is, as I've already said.

In the specific case of why swarms arrive at your potting shed, one would ask "What other possible reasons for swarms choosing your potting shed as a new home might exist, and how have you eliminated them as unviable explanations?" Of course this isn't limited to just the possible explanations you can think of, but those that anyone can think of and demonstrate are plausible.

James

Honestly, it's best not to get into a debate about dowsing or ley lines on an internet forum, just like it's best not to get into a debate about someone else's religious beliefs.

Like religion, there is no scientific proof that any of this stuff exists. I don't believe in it myself. But we don't mock other people's religious beliefs. So the best approach, in my view, is that when someone mentions dowsing or ley lines, act like they had mentioned their belief in god (or, for example, that they had prayed for something and as a result it had happened), nod politely, and move on.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Hi James,
This thread did make me smile as I could see several people extolling the virtues of dowsing and energy lines who would normally be calling for scientific evidence of a phenomenon.
I think the difference will be that most of those people know there is no real evidence so would not try to convince you of such but just say they have had experience of this phenomenon.
I am extremely sceptical of energy lines and dowsing but in my experience it seems to work. I was in charge of the telecommunication system on a section of motorway and the telecom ducts installed below the road construction were often "lost" under a metre or so of backfill. When the time came to install the cables it took ages trying to refind the ends of these ducts so my Clerk of Works used to go dowsing for the ducts and point the labourers to the right spot to dig - he was very successful and saved a lot of time.
One day the CoW was on holiday and I was asked to tell the guys where the ducts were so since I had the CoW's Landy complete with the bent welding rods I had a go and to my utter amazement pinpointed them within inches.
I have located water pipes and other things in friends gardens since but don't have a clue how!
I would never proport to know how it works or if it doesn't why am I so lucky with dowsing and not with the lottery but I just go with the flow and don't question it anymore.

Edit. I should point out that I only seem to be able to find physical things. I have tried but I can't seem to get any reaction on "energy lines" when told by others that they are in the area.

 

[Ian123]

My potting shed is at an intersection of two ley lines and I get a couple of swarms on it every year. Science can’t explain everything

I wonder if you moved the shed would the bees still move to the shed or the vacant spot

 

[JamezF]

That dowsing is a real thing has been debunked so often it's genuinely hard to believe that anyone still gives it credit. It gives results no better than chance. Really. I know people believe it and want to believe it. That's often because they look no further for a simpler explanation, or don't know how to (or in some cases don't want to). People are notoriously bad observers. And of course chance means that sometimes dowsers get a positive result, which confirms their belief in their ability.

Sadly for those who believe in dowsing the offer no longer exists, but before James Randi died anyone who was able to genuinely demonstrate such an ability could have claimed a million dollars from his foundation. It remained unclaimed despite many attempts over a period of about twenty years (though the prize wasn't initially as large). Generally it seems that the dowsers would agree to the terms of the test and be pretty certain they'd be successful only to fail and then blame some external factor that they'd not mentioned might cause a problem beforehand.

There have been many other investigations that found no evidence that it worked. I believe some even proposed mechanisms that might make the dowser think it was working that were in fact completely unrelated.

James

 

[Arfermo]

Space isn't really an issue where my hive is, as I've only one hive I'd like to try and catch a swarm to add another hive.
I've made 3 national broad boxes to use as traps, would mid April be about the right time to put the bait boxes out?

Swarms won't be around for some time yet - late April/May/June. If you want another box of bees the best way would be to split the existing single colony when they have gained enough brood - say late May - and put some workers and brood and stores into a new box. The bees in which ever box has no queen will then make themselves a queen and continue developing into a completely productive colony FOR FREE - just as would be the case with a collected swarm except that you will know where the bees came from and are not somebody else's poorly managed rubbish possibly. If you really wants to get swarms then boxes anywhere is about right but swarms are least likely move in when there isn't anything to attract them other than just space - unless they are stupid.

 

[pargyle]

Because dowsing really works, right?

James

Sadly, the more you protest, the more people try it and discover it does work. It costs nothing to make a couple of dowsing rods and a bit of a walk round with them ... what makes you so vehemently against a phenonmenon that has been used for hundreds of years with success ?

 

[pargyle]

Well... it wasn't my intention to open a debate on whether dowsing works or not, I only intended to identify a phenomena which, for many beekeepers, has proved to be a useful tool in siting bait boxes. Indeed, you can't get much more traditional a beekeeper than Roger Patterson and he's proved it to his own satisfaction ... As I've said previously, it costs nothing to try ... if it doesn't work for you then that's fine, if it does you have gained an insight into something which is hard to accept until you have seen it working for yourself,

I wasn't looking for converts, merely pointing out something that works for me. No need to knock it .. we have enough zealots in the world of beekeeping.

 

[JamezF]

Sadly, the more you protest, the more people try it and discover it does work. It costs nothing to make a couple of dowsing rods and a bit of a walk round with them ... what makes you so vehemently against a phenonmenon that has been used for hundreds of years with success ?

What makes you so vehemently insist that it must work when investigations under test conditions show that it's no better than chance? The latter is why I don't believe in it.

As a rule people are dreadful observers of fact and readily jump to incorrect conclusions. The scientific process has developed to try to eliminate as many of those sources of error as possible. Apply that process to dowsing and there's nothing left. To repeat what I posted earlier: "How can I really be sure as possible about this?" Most people find, or see something found, by a dowser and say "Well then, that proves it!", ignoring chance and all of the many other possible reasons that don't involve the necessity of inventing some woo-woo that no-one can explain.

Any form of explanation that you can give for believing in dowsing can be applied equally well to showing that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, which is obviously rubbish because I know they live in the bee shed.

James

 

[JamezF]

Indeed, you can't get much more traditional a beekeeper than Roger Patterson and he's proved it to his own satisfaction ...

He's "proved" nothing. He's just decided he believes in it. There is a world of difference. As I said: "people are dreadful observers of fact and readily jump to incorrect conclusions".

Given that he's been around that long, why did he not try to collect the million dollars? If it really worked I'd have thought that would be a no-brainer.

James

 

[pargyle]

I agree with a lot of what you say, James. Your point is aptly demonstrated in lots of threads here which end up in ping pong contests over providing scientifically reviewed links to somebody's assertions. However. I'm not trying to convert anybody, simply describing a phenomenon. Stan used to work for the water board where they used and still do use dowsing to find deep water pipes. Dowsing never ever crossed my mind till I kept bees and wondered if there was anything in it for setting up bait hives. I have three sites. Two regularly attract swarms, one never.The one fruitless site is devoid of any energy.
Philip made me some lovely turned dowsing rods handles and wires to try.....
Here you are @pargyle, there's another opportunity for you.

I'm a great fan of verbal history, storytelling, myths and legends. Why is it that so many cultures who could never have communicated with each other many many years ago describe the same stories, legends and mythical creatures? No internet and social media at the dawn of Man's existence.

Another one of my nice little earners ! ... Sadly, the unwarranted disclosure that a couple of bent wire coat hangers and two empty Biro tubes works just as well has destroyed the market - except for the discerning dowser who likes the superior qualities of my turned yew handles and copper coated rods ...

Still available and less than half the price of the equivalent of some of the competition ... such as here:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/623...ods&ref=sr_gallery-1-6&organic_search_click=1

 

[Erichalfbee]

Another one of my nice little earners ! ... Sadly, the unwarranted disclosure that a couple of bent wire coat hangers and two empty Biro tubes works just as well has destroyed the market - except for the discerning dowser who likes the superior qualities of my turned yew handles and copper coated rods ...

Still available and less than half the price of the equivalent of some of the competition ... such as here:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/623...ods&ref=sr_gallery-1-6&organic_search_click=1

Perhaps they might work better than fake ones

 

[Curly green finger's]

I've had bait boxes set up 30 metres from apiarys, 1/4 of a mile, half a mile, 1 mile, I've had more swarms in the shorter distance bait hives. I think imo they prefer to set up nearer to apiarys most of the time in the same areas/sites.
My thoughts travelling bigger distances is going to use more of there reserves, the sooner/quicker they can find a home the better chance they have to survive and build a nest.

 

[pargyle]

He's "proved" nothing. He's just decided he believes in it. There is a world of difference. As I said: "people are dreadful observers of fact and readily jump to incorrect conclusions".

Given that he's been around that long, why did he not try to collect the million dollars? If it really worked I'd have thought that would be a no-brainer.

James

I've no intention of pandering to your desire to seek proof and evidence or be goaded into justifying something I have found to work for me - and others. You may not accept other people's beliefs but the world should be a tolerant place where we accept that we all have different ideas and accepting these, where they harm nobody, for what they are - an individuals personal opinion - is pretty fundamental to a reasonable society.

I'm not saying that dowsing will cure cancer, bring any personal well being or produce some wondrous ability to earn a fortune ... those that do are charlatans that should be sought out and pilloried. All I am saying is that dowsing works for some people and in my experience has helped my beekeeping. My hives are, where possible, sited on locations that are found to be favourable by dowsing and seem to thrive better where they can be sited on these intersections... and swarms also tend to arrive every year on spots that I have identified as intersections of energy lines indicated by my dowsing rods. I'm not claiming mystical powers - merely identifying what I have observed.

Why would you be so averse, almost to the point of obsessive denouncing, to something that harms nobody and costs nothing. It's fine by me that you have your opinions - I'm good with that but why would you seek to discourage others from even trying dowsing ?

 

[user 20297]

I've had bait boxes set up 30 metres from apiarys, 1/4 of a mile, half a mile, 1 mile, I've had more swarms in the shorter distance bait hives. I think imo they prefer to set up nearer to apiarys most of the time in the same areas/sites.
My thoughts travelling bigger distances is going to use more of there reserves, the sooner/quicker they can find a home the better chance they have to survive and build a nest.

At last, a bit of experience and logic-supported commonsense, which is relevant to the thread title.

 

[pargyle]

At last, a bit of experience and logic-supported commonsense, which is relevant to the thread title.

But ... it's just personal observation - by rights it is an unproven theory ... there is little or no logic involved and unless you had control models in place it's about as scientific as dowsing ... I'm good with Mark's theory but I would not rely on it as a certainty.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've had bait boxes set up 30 metres from apiarys

and I've had them set up a couple of miles from the apiary and caught swarms. What does that prove (apart from that someone, somewhere was not on top of their swarm control/avoidance regime)

 

[Erichalfbee]

At last, a bit of experience and logic-supported commonsense, which is relevant to the thread title.

Where do you site your successful bait hives and why?

 

[JamezF]

Why would you be so averse, almost to the point of obsessive denouncing, to something that harms nobody and costs nothing. It's fine by me that you have your opinions - I'm good with that but why would you seek to discourage others from even trying dowsing ?

Because I do not believe that encouraging others to believe in anything that has no determinable basis in fact "harms nobody". If you teach people to accept misinformation and coincidence as truth without question then you open the door to far more damaging instances of the same.

I am open to changing my mind about dowsing however, if you can demonstrate that it works under test conditions designed by someone who understands how to set these things up properly. Indeed I will be fascinated by the opportunities it affords.

James