How far should bait boxes be from a hive

[Erichalfbee]

So, bees being so predictably unpredictable, is a swarm less likely to land in an apiary-based bait box than they are in a ley-line-located one which is miles away from any apiary?

No idea. I'm not a bee, only half a bee

 

[JamezF]

So can you point us to scientifically proven evidence that it doesn't work

Not you as well!

You could start here, where there's a list of some of the research that's been done. Most of the links are, I believe, to articles published in "Nature", which as a peer-reviewed science journal is probably about as high a standard of proof as is likely to be available. Unfortunately that means you may need a subscription to read them.

Otherwise, it's covered in a number of books too, perhaps Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" though I'm not certain. I know he did some stuff about security people dowsing for firearms or something like that quite a while back. Brian Regal covers it in "Pseudoscience: A Critical Encyclopedia". Possibly not as reliable as Nature though.

James Randi did quite a few trials, at least some of which are on youtube, where dowsers attempted to demonstrate their ability. He was trying to be as scientific as possible whilst perhaps compromising due to the requirements of making television programmes, but I think is considered to have been more than generous in terms of allowing the dowsers the opportunity to produce a positive result (or alternatively, in giving them more than enough rope).

James

 

[Mint Bee]

James. You are over reacting. How can believing that dowsing works harm anybody?
I don’t worry whether you believe it works for me and I doubt Philip does either.

I've no intention of pandering to your desire to seek proof and evidence or be goaded into justifying something I have found to work for me

sound like any other threads recently that the mods shut down when individuals failed to provide any evidence to back ups statements on natural varroa beekeeping?

Basic principle is the same - the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making empirically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others

 

[user 20297]

I've no intention of pandering to your desire to seek proof and evidence or be goaded into justifying something I have found to work for me

sound like any other threads recently that the mods shut down when individuals failed to provide any evidence to back ups statements on natural varroa beekeeping?

Basic principle is the same - the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making empirically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others

...........the thing is, unlike the relationship between bees and leylines, the chance that "natural varroa beekeeping" will in any way ever be shown to be backed up by science, is minimal.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've no intention of pandering to your desire to seek proof and evidence or be goaded into justifying something I have found to work for me

sound like any other threads recently that the mods shut down when individuals failed to provide any evidence to back ups statements on natural varroa beekeeping?

Basic principle is the same - the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making empirically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others

i don’t know why people are making such a fuss about it.
Why don’t we all just dowse off

 

[Boston Bees]

i don’t know why people are making such a fuss about it.
Why don’t we all just dowse off

Boredom? It's been a long time since anyone opened a hive.

Though it would probably be the same in July, to be fair.

It's just one of those conversation topics, like politics and religion, that is likely to be polarised.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Not you as well!

You could start here, where there's a list of some of the research that's been done. Most of the links are, I believe, to articles published in "Nature", which as a peer-reviewed science journal is probably about as high a standard of proof as is likely to be available. Unfortunately that means you may need a subscription to read them.

Otherwise, it's covered in a number of books too, perhaps Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" though I'm not certain. I know he did some stuff about security people dowsing for firearms or something like that quite a while back. Brian Regal covers it in "Pseudoscience: A Critical Encyclopedia". Possibly not as reliable as Nature though.

James Randi did quite a few trials, at least some of which are on youtube, where dowsers attempted to demonstrate their ability. He was trying to be as scientific as possible whilst perhaps compromising due to the requirements of making television programmes, but I think is considered to have been more than generous in terms of allowing the dowsers the opportunity to produce a positive result (or alternatively, in giving them more than enough rope).

James

so what it boils down to is that both sides of the argument struggle to 'proove' their argument. Wikipedia and 'arguments' for either side is not really proof.
I'll stick where I always have with this one. With an open mind and a big helping of scepticism.

 

[user 20297]

i don’t know why people are making such a fuss about it.
Why don’t we all just dowse off

If I'm in any way considered to be a part of the "fuss" contingent, it's not because I'm bored.
The exact same people who regularly harangue (and I'm being diplomatic there) posters who want to discuss things that they think are nonsense, are promoting and giving a free pass to a concept which is as plausible as there being a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and which is no help in answering the original, simple question.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nobody here has suggested anything but that when they have tried dowsing it worked for them
Nobody is suggesting that it works for anybody else.

Let’s all get back to the OPs question which was how far from one’s hives should bait boxes be
Thankyou.
This is the beginners section

 

[Swarm]

How near, maybe? We once had the pleasure (surprise) of watching a swarm issue from a hive and enter an empty nuc right next door.

 

[JamezF]

so what it boils down to is that both sides of the argument struggle to 'proove' their argument. Wikipedia and 'arguments' for either side is not really proof.
I'll stick where I always have with this one. With an open mind and a big helping of scepticism.

No, not really. There's nothing for the naysayers to prove. The conversation proceeds along these lines:

Dowser: It's possible to find water under the ground by walking around with a bit of hazel twig
Sceptic: People claim all sorts of random incorrect stuff all the time. How do you know it works?
Dowser: I can do it!
Sceptic: Go on then, demonstrate it under conditions that we can both accept provide no alternative explanation. Otherwise I can see no reason to believe you.

The sceptic doesn't have anything to prove. The burden of proof lies with the dowser.

Neither am I claiming that Wikipedia is a source of truth. I merely linked to it because it has a handy list of references to articles in a very highly regarded scientific journal documenting the authors' failures to find any evidence that dowsing works. I did look, but I didn't find any references to Nature articles that support it, though there were a few letters from people complaining (without evidence) that the published articles were wrong.

Given a sufficient number of attempts that fail it's not unreasonable to draw the conclusion to a high degree of certainty that it doesn't actually work. In fact, science now uses a statistical definition of what degree of certainty is required in order to prove something one way or another. Or will you also allow that there may well be fairies at the bottom of my garden based on the mere claim that there are, despite my inability to produce any evidence? In fact, there's arguably more chance of there being fairies at the bottom of my garden than there is of dowsing working, because no-one has actually tried to find them and failed.

As Richard Feynman said: "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."

James

 

[pargyle]

No, not really. There's nothing for the naysayers to prove. The conversation proceeds along these lines:

Dowser: It's possible to find water under the ground by walking around with a bit of hazel twig
Sceptic: People claim all sorts of random incorrect stuff all the time. How do you know it works?
Dowser: I can do it!
Sceptic: Go on then, demonstrate it under conditions that we can both accept provide no alternative explanation. Otherwise I can see no reason to believe you.

The sceptic doesn't have anything to prove. The burden of proof lies with the dowser.

Neither am I claiming that Wikipedia is a source of truth. I merely linked to it because it has a handy list of references to articles in a very highly regarded scientific journal documenting the authors' failures to find any evidence that dowsing works. I did look, but I didn't find any references to Nature articles that support it, though there were a few letters from people complaining (without evidence) that the published articles were wrong.

Given a sufficient number of attempts that fail it's not unreasonable to draw the conclusion to a high degree of certainty that it doesn't actually work. In fact, science now uses a statistical definition of what degree of certainty is required in order to prove something one way or another. Or will you also allow that there may well be fairies at the bottom of my garden based on the mere claim that there are, despite my inability to produce any evidence? In fact, there's arguably more chance of there being fairies at the bottom of my garden than there is of dowsing working, because no-one has actually tried to find them and failed.

As Richard Feynman said: "Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out."

James

Oh my .... Can't you just find a good book to read ?

 

[North End Bees]

This is probably a stupid question but how far away should bait boxes be from a hive and also what kind of distance should they be spaced out?
As I'm new to bee keeping I don't have any old comb to put in the boxes so what would be the best alternative?
Thanks

To get back to what the OP wanted to know, David Evans (The Apiarist) has written lots on this, e.g here, where he says

"Although I’ve located bait hives high up on the top of greenhouses or sheds, the majority are on normal hive stands. This is pragmatism, not because they are more attractive to the bees at knee height.
I simply don’t want to climb a ladder to retrieve them

Finally, I put them where I can see them and check them. I locate one in the corner of each apiary, as far from my other hives as possible, but probably never more than 10m away."

Don't worry if you don't have spare old frames. Just put in a couple of foundationless frames with a drop of lemongrass oil on the top bars.

You'll likely see some interest in the bait hive any time from the beginning of April. Don't leave it till you think 'swarming season' should be underway.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

If you have no idea how or why it works, you can't be certain it's the dowsing and not something else that you've not thought of. You can believe it works, but that doesn't mean it does.

As I've already said more than once, people are notoriously unreliable observers, though as that has also been demonstrated quite clearly using the scientific method, perhaps those who don't want to believe it will claim otherwise.

James

I'm not getting into a debate about how or why. If I can reliably find a buried cable or water pipe/drain with two bent coat hangers it's good enough for me. I can recall from school even using printed logarithm tables without the tedium of deriving them

 

[Erichalfbee]

I did ask nicely.

I can recall from school even using printed logarithm tables without the tedium of deriving them

What would modern schoolchildren make of those?
The school I was at changed the syllabus just in time for me to escape calculus too.....

 

[Dodge]

To get back to what the OP wanted to know, David Evans (The Apiarist) has written lots on this, e.g here, where he says

"Although I’ve located bait hives high up on the top of greenhouses or sheds, the majority are on normal hive stands. This is pragmatism, not because they are more attractive to the bees at knee height.
I simply don’t want to climb a ladder to retrieve them

Finally, I put them where I can see them and check them. I locate one in the corner of each apiary, as far from my other hives as possible, but probably never more than 10m away."

Don't worry if you don't have spare old frames. Just put in a couple of foundationless frames with a drop of lemongrass oil on the top bars.

You'll likely see some interest in the bait hive any time from the beginning of April. Don't leave it till you think 'swarming season' should be underway.

I did this the first year if bait hiving. Decades old hive, lemon grass oil and 2 frames of old comb placed on a regular hive stand 3 meters from my hives. Got home one day to see a swarm going in. Placed undrained comb inspected a week later to find eggs, larvae and a lovely yellow marked Queen which wasn't mine.

Think the Holy grail is to capture a marked queen from someone else tbh.

Don't forget folks that bait hives will bring bees / colony of unknown providence and may bring disease etc. Sometimes it's worth using am isolation apiary in such circumstances.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sometimes it's worth using am isolation apiary in such circumstances.

That’s why mine are on the potting shed roof and they stay there till the winter.

 

[North End Bees]

That’s why mine are on the potting shed roof and they stay there till the winter.

So not because the potting shed is on a ley line then?!

 

[Poly Hive]

Ignoring the tedium above.

I have found over time that height makes no odds. I met a beekeeper who had 100 Glen hives in his back garden (in Dinnet Royal Deeside) and his swarms landed on an apple tree branch, reliably he said, as it was so impregnated with pheromones that is where they clustered. He had made some damn good money over many years supplying Fortnum and Masons.

My video on Youtube shows a swarm arriving at a hive on garden steps. all of my caught swarms in bait hives have been on the ground. Distance makes no odds either I've seen bait hives at 500m catch swarms and found swarms in my spare kit at the apiary. *shrug*

PH

 

[pargyle]

So not because the potting shed is on a ley line then?!

There's no reason it cannot be both .....swarms arrive and are quarantined on the potting shed roof ... was there a reason why you wanted to have further dig at the doswers ?