Hives, Sizes and Management

[Ian123]

This evidently is a free hanging frame! If we all cut 50mm off the bottom of our foundation we’d all be free hanging .Anyway it was just a thought

 

[pargyle]

This evidently is a free hanging frame! If we all cut 50mm off the bottom of our foundation we’d all be free hanging .Anyway it was just a thoughtView attachment 34734

Or just do without foundation altogether ... works for me and saves a load of money ..



And if they run out of frame space ...they just carry on ...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Don't bees make free hanging frames if they want to? Some of mine just remove some of the attachment to the side bars at the bottom.

 

[buffon]

My bees at the home apiary find, and fly over 2 miles to the heather every year - so how do you think the scouts passed the message over?

Dancing?

Don't bees tend to keep the bottom bar free of wax attachments, and will chew away wax foundation from there on old frames?

 

[buffon]

Why oh why is anyone trying to convince others that their choice of box is superior to anyone else’s choice!!!

Because this is a forum for discussing things? We all have or form opinions on what is better, that is how we choose to buy something.

There should be enough people on here with bad backs or hernias to acknowledge that National/Langstroth/Dadant is not for everyone.

 

[Newbeeneil]

There should be enough people on here with bad backs or hernias to acknowledge that National/Langstroth/Dadant is not for everyone.

Oh I completely agree, but those things are related to the beekeeper needs...... not the bees

 

[Newbeeneil]

Because this is a forum for discussing things? We all have or form opinions on what is better, that is how we choose to buy something.

There should be enough people on here with bad backs or hernias to acknowledge that National/Langstroth/Dadant is not for everyone.

I think I should also say I'm a complete tart when it comes to hives designs. I have (or have had) in wood and/or poly the following types.
National
14x12
Long hive
WBC
Rose
Langstroth
Top bar
Commercial
And many individual designed type of nuc box.
So it's not the type of hive I question it's the vigour people express their choice.

 

[fian]

When I opened the post I was thinking that each one would describe what they use and the way they handle their colognes.
Especially as a guide for beginners who are looking to experience other handling but have doubts.

 

[rdartington]

Not sure how to start but I’ll try

“To clarify the two view points: the conventional ‘commercial’ approach is to use bees to make honey for the beekeeper, using the very well established National hive without question. End of story! Do I understand correctly?”

No you don’t understand…there are many shall we say box type hives, i doubt any are so precious as to be sold on any type being significantly better than the other. Box type hives also come in varying materials wood, resigns and poly.
Why does conventional have to be commercial there are far more amateur beeks than commercial…Have you taken honey from a hive?. Doesn’t matter what type of box it is, are you then by default conventional or commercial?

In response to your answers.

“1. ‘So setting aside personal wood working skills you could effectively buy an apiary for the price of some long type hives
Correct - the price of bought long hives includes material (of course) but also overheads, labour, VAT, profit, financing, marketing. So don’t set aside personal woodworking skills. The DLD is specifically designed to be assembled at home from parts cut to size at a local builder’s merchant - so you pay only for materials.”

Everything you’ve said above can be done with the construction of a box type hive. Simply cut or get cut 6 bits of ply 4 walls and an additional 2 shorter end panels. Pin/glue your box walls, add your end panels so they are lower than the two end walls and you have an instant rebate suitable for short lug smith or langstroth frame. The smith being the short lug BS frame. For construction of a box suitable for long lugs you simply need an additional 4 lengths of batten to expand the rebate/close void. All could be done simply with a hammer and pins with supplied cut wood from a merchants……There’s few that still offer such service by the way B&Q may still do but the wood quality is poor…The same method can be used to construct long hives by the way, just make the sides as long as you wish and add a floor. I constructed a couple for queen rearing some years ago.

“Not as much clear evidence as I would like, but clear indications. Full weekly internal inspections by beekeepers have been said to disrupt the colony for a week - by when the next inspection is due.
Wild colonies leave the bottom of combs hanging clear as dance platforms - restricting the depth of brood combs results in no clear bottom cells , so no dancing. This does not matter when kept hives are transported to the crop, but does when scouts have to discover it and dance to tell foragers. My apiary is 3/4 mile from a row of lime trees. Without dancing, that crop would never be found by enough foragers on their own.”

Utter rubbish…find 1 other beekeeper on this site who reads this that thinks bees in their box hives won’t fly 3/4 of a mile to a food source.
Research carried out in box type hives.
“Frisch, Von K. (1967) The Dance Language and Orientation of Bees. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA.
The foraging range of honey bees was recorded to reach up to 13·5 km.”

“US beekeepers report 80% losses. Wild bees would go extinct as the survival rate of swarms is only 25%.”

That answer doesn’t make sense are commercial beekeepers going extinct if SOME are reporting 80% losses or are swarms/wild bees going extinct because only 25% are survivors? I’d rather suggest neither!. For staters we are in the UK and theses are the official figures
“Therefore, the winter loss rate was 18.75%. This is lower than the previous winters value of 19.1%. The BBKA conducts a survey across the entire UK, and the average annual losses between 2007 and 2020 was 18.2%, and our values are in line with this.”
I’d also suggest those figures are naturally inflated do to high numbers of beginners in the BBKA!….and of course match sticks

“these are trivial examples. Walikg behind a horse-drawn ploughs has been superseeded by high tec huge machines that map a field and fertilise different parts according to local need.”

Only because you live in a cushy country! in large parts of the world ploughs are still pulled by animals and even if it’s pulled by a bloody John Deere it’s still a bloody ploughYou do appear to consider a 1940s equipment out of date. Ironically as previously said there’s evidence of long hives 1000 years BC. BLOODY NEW FANGLED NON CONVENTIONAL NATIONAL.

“I posted a new deep comb in my Blue Hive. Here is a Polish hive. (NOT a design I am going to copy).”

Blue Hive?……,I did warn everyone

Ian, we have different views. You are prejudiced in favour of current hives and seem unable to consider any possibility of improvement to suit todays needs. I am more open minded by nature, and believe what we have came about by experimentation, eg Rev Langstroth in particular, and experimentation should continue. My own hive of 1975 was dveloped for my own use, I do not press it on anyone else, only publish it to benefit any others who might like to try it. I mhave Nationals, DLD’s , top-bar, Warre, in my teaching apiary - and it is plain to me which are easiest to work. I am guided by the new science published by Seeley, Tauz iin particular - I have not noted any sign that you fork out to buy such books but perhaps you do but do not believe what you read. (I confess that I may have some 350 bee books - bit I have not read all 350 - but I do skim). My Blue Hive, that are so contemptuous of unseen, addresses how bees make their nest, which is always restricted by the box design but I believe can be less restricted by a more suitable box shape. So I will continue to experiment - and share with anyone interested.
This pic indicated how bees nest if totally unrestricted - not conclusive but indicative. And very certainly not a squshed rectangle.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You are prejudiced in favour of current hives

and you are definitely prejudiced against them
looks like you're quits

 

[user 20297]

Ian, we have different views. You are prejudiced in favour of current hives and seem unable to consider any possibility of improvement to suit todays needs. I am more open minded by nature, and believe what we have came about by experimentation, eg Rev Langstroth in particular, and experimentation should continue. My own hive of 1975 was dveloped for my own use, I do not press it on anyone else, only publish it to benefit any others who might like to try it. I mhave Nationals, DLD’s , top-bar, Warre, in my teaching apiary - and it is plain to me which are easiest to work. I am guided by the new science published by Seeley, Tauz iin particular - I have not noted any sign that you fork out to buy such books but perhaps you do but do not believe what you read. (I confess that I may have some 350 bee books - bit I have not read all 350 - but I do skim). My Blue Hive, that are so contemptuous of unseen, addresses how bees make their nest, which is always restricted by the box design but I believe can be less restricted by a more suitable box shape. So I will continue to experiment - and share with anyone interested.
This pic indicated how bees nest if totally unrestricted - not conclusive but indicative. And very certainly not a squshed rectangle. View attachment 34736

The shape of comb in a freehanging situation as pictured is not an outcome of any specific desire on the part of the bees. It is going to be as a direct result of the same natural force that causes many other natural things to be curved or circular.
That shape is structurally much more rigid than if the comb had straight edges given that there is no external supporting surface to which the bees can attach the comb. It is also a better shape for heat conservation and a more uniform layering of temperature within the nest. It is better at deflecting rain and less susceptible to the force of the wind.
In almost any man-made box or building or in a naturally formed enclosure the bees are less influenced by these negative factors and if the colony is strong enough, it appears that they will build out to occupy the internal contours of any shaped cavity they are offered.
I would not claim this to show that bees preferred a box.....it is just a product of the laws of physics.

 

[rdartington]

What sort of extractor - like this this one? I ask because I thought that could take Dadant sized frames and I thought the golden hive was based on Dadant dimensions just rotated 90 degrees. Is it the lugs that means you have had to shorten the width?

In the summer I bought a cheapo Vevor 3 frame extractor which can only take a 235 X 440 frame (although I haven't precisely measured). The 4 frame version info says it takes the same size. Interestingly in Poland they have a Warszawski Zwykly (Warsaw Normal) hive that has frames 240 x 435 mm. More info at the bottom of this page Modified Einraumbeute with frames etc available from Lyson. So it would be conceivable to build a narrow deep hive that has frames that fit my extractor and with something like the lyson mini plus frame as supers.

I am really grateful for this posting - the first that has offered info on others who are on the road I want to travel.
The link to David Heaf’s website is very helpful - and new to me. I have David’s 2021 booklet, ‘The Modified Golden Hive’, but that is mostly concerned with his hive building (which is a bit more complicated using salvaged wood than the DLD, when it does not have to be). The link you give to his website gives so much more info about how colonies have performed over seven seasons.
I would love a pic of the Polish ‘Warsaw Normal’ hive - wondering if it similar to the Polish ‘Sentry Box hive I have posted a pic of - or a more normal long hive (accessed from the top, not the back).

The extractor I use most often is a an Italian 4-frame Saf Natura, sold long ago by National Bee Supplies, who now stock what looks like the Veevo 4 frame model at £381. I will check the drum size against the Italian Saf Natura as the Veevo is made in China I think. (Correction anybody?). Yes, a 13 inch top bar is the longest that will fit the Saf - and 25mm lugs are about the smallest you can hold - so my frame proper is 11inches wide.
An 11 inch frame also fits a DLD converted to a ‘Blue Hive’ by adding to its height and reducing internal width by applying 25mm Celotex and 12mm ply inside each side.

May I comment that the Lyson frames are only four strips of plane wood - quite easily made at home if you have a rip saw - or if anyone in your association has a rip saw. Just butt the sides against the top bar in a jig and drill two holes for nice round masony nails or bamboo rods. No need for a bottom bar in my view - only an obstruction the bees have to scramble over when entering. I set the side bars to finish 8mm above the floor, so the bees can easily grab hold - but perhaps they climb the hive side wall , I don’t know. Finally, I set in bamboo studs to space the frames - I space brrood frames at 36mm and honey frames at 40mm or so. Fatter honey frames means fewer to deal with - and also avoids spoiling with brood without using an excluder.

Let’s have more of these informative posts!

 

[rdartington]

The shape of comb in a freehanging situation as pictured is not an outcome of any specific desire on the part of the bees. It is going to be as a direct result of the same natural force that causes many other natural things to be curved or circular.
That shape is structurally much more rigid than if the comb had straight edges given that there is no external supporting surface to which the bees can attach the comb. It is also a better shape for heat conservation and a more uniform layering of temperature within the nest. It is better at deflecting rain and less susceptible to the force of the wind.
In almost any man-made box or building or in a naturally formed enclosure the bees are less influenced by these negative factors and if the colony is strong enough, it appears that they will build out to occupy the internal contours of any shaped cavity they are offered.
I would not claim this to show that bees preferred a box.....it is just a product of the laws of physics.

Yes, the shape of a nest within a cavity is shaped by the cavity - but shorely the law at first is ‘get inside quickly after swarming - or die in the next storm!‘. Isn’t it only then that the law of physics comes into play, dictating how much energy/honey is needed to keep the brood nest of whatever shape up to 35degC, whatever the outside temperature? And isn’t it likely that the nest with the minimum surface area, - a sphere - will use less energy than a rectangular nest - and so store more honey?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have a box fixed to a tree at the bottom of the garden. 18” x 18” base and 28” high. It’s been up for six years and has had three colonies in it the latest of which has just died. It started life as a hollow box. I’d love to see what the bees have done in there.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Died mostly by the sounds of it!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Died mostly by the sounds of it!

Ah. But they have left comb behind.

 

[JamezF]

Ah. But they have left comb behind.

At least until the wax moths find it

James

 

[rdartington]

and you are definitely prejudiced against them
looks like you're quits

Yes - almost.
I am way down in hurling abuse.
Actually, I ought not to accept being judged equally prejudiced to Ian.
Prejudice means ‘pre-judgement’, making up your mind before examining the facts’.
I kept Nats for 10 years before developing the long hive 47 years ago. I have had Nats alongside DLD’s - and other hives - in my training apiary over the last 17 years. My comparisons are based on observations. It is not fair to call that ‘prejudice’.
But in the case of Ian, have we heard of any evidence he has ever examined or used or compared long hives?
if not, his view is prejudiced - but mine is not.
.

 

[Ian123]

Ian, we have different views. You are prejudiced in favour of current hives and seem unable to consider any possibility of improvement to suit todays needs. I am more open minded by nature, and believe what we have came about by experimentation, eg Rev Langstroth in particular, and experimentation should continue. My own hive of 1975 was dveloped for my own use, I do not press it on anyone else, only publish it to benefit any others who might like to try it. I mhave Nationals, DLD’s , top-bar, Warre, in my teaching apiary - and it is plain to me which are easiest to work. I am guided by the new science published by Seeley, Tauz iin particular - My Blue Hive, that are so contemptuous of unseen, addresses how bees make their nest, which is always restricted by the box design but I believe can be less restricted by a more suitable box shape. So I will continue to experiment - and share with anyone interested.
This pic indicated how bees nest if totally unrestricted - not conclusive but indicative. And very certainly not a squshed rectangle.

“Ian, we have different views. You are prejudiced in favour of current hives and seem unable to consider any possibility of improvement to suit todays needs. I am more open minded by nature,”

I’m prejudiced in what way? I’ve not suggested none use long hives or pointed out negatives bar the cost! I’ve had some myself over the years and said as much previously. Even providing an easy means of constructionThe only person that appears show prejudice is yourself towards any that use box type hives and is therefore backward non thinking and will be left behind

“I have not noted any sign that you fork out to buy such books but perhaps you do but do not believe what you read. (I confess that I may have some 350 bee books - bit I have not read all 350 - but I do skim).”

Your at it again if you were not so condescending you may find more takers……Try it!

“My Blue Hive, that are so contemptuous of unseen, addresses how bees make their nest, which is always restricted by the box design but I believe can be less restricted by a more suitable box shape.”

So your effectively saying your box is better than mine please show me what contempt I showed for your box, I simply predicted it’s arrival.

“This pic indicated how bees nest if totally unrestricted - not conclusive but indicative. And very certainly not a squshed rectangle.”

I would not really use a picture of a colony close to perishing, when you claim natural/wild colonies survive better and outperform bees kept in a box…..

 

[fian]

I have a box fixed to a tree at the bottom of the garden. 18” x 18” base and 28” high. It’s been up for six years and has had three colonies in it the latest of which has just died. It started life as a hollow box. I’d love to see what the bees have done in there.

View attachment 34740

The center comb will most likely be at 45° to the square side in order to maximize the comb. The rest will go parallel to it, each time smaller in its length.
The most interesting thing would be the spacing between the centers of the comb (closer together near the central comb and further apart towards the outside?) and the radius of the expansion of the nest (around 16"?)