Experimental, easy, Warre-style setup

[user 20297]

It was disconcerting to find, as @blackcloud warned me, that I have had some damage to PIR components, but these have been whilst in storage, so may have been a mouse or another critter (no less of a worry!). There is a bit of damage, which I repaired with filler, in what looks like an external robbing attempt on a clearer board.
But I've gone ahead as planned. It all went smoothly, with the frames in the top-box of a two-box Mini-Plus simply refitted into the Mini-Plus jammed in my Warre box, and the lower frames, where drawn, screwed to the top bars of my lower Warre box; the remaining top-bars have had a dribble of melted beeswax underneath, which should encourage the bees to make the comb they will need.
I had to move the hive about four feet, as the mini nuc had been perched on a wall, but the wise bees soon relocated.
So effectively, within the hive, nothing has changed for the bees, other than that they have a significant amount of new space and better insulation. So I've built an eke so that I can give them plenty of thin syrup. I had run out of thick PIR and only had undersized pices of 25mm, so the eke is from timber planks with bits of insulation stuck on the outside.
The bees will now have no interference from me other than feeding and an additional, nadired box in Spring. I'll be reporting back here when they make it through the Winter.

 

[user 20297]

This video dropped into my You Tube feed today. It's of Japanese beekeeping with A. cerana, but the box dimensions and the challenge of extracting from them are very similar to my Warre.

Maybe unwisely, the beekeeper lets the bees clean up the equipment but the gentle bees let her extract outside.
There is another parallel for me in that the dinky little press that she uses would be ideal for my heather honey.

The video is very well filmed and clearly explained....well worth watching and maybe useful for some people?

 

[JamezF]

Interesting, but I'm amazed bees weren't all over everything during the pressing. I can't begin to imagine what that would be like if I tried it here. Surely that must be done indoors for the most part? Leave it outdoors in my garden for twenty-four hours and the honey would probably all be gone.

James

 

[BaconWizard]

Interesting, but I'm amazed bees weren't all over everything during the pressing. I can't begin to imagine what that would be like if I tried it here. Surely that must be done indoors for the most part? Leave it outdoors in my garden for twenty-four hours and the honey would probably all be gone.

James

I actually believe that the warre system would work better if the comb was continuous as in the Japanese hive and would be keen to try it.

Taking honey wouldn't be an issue: wait until the following spring flow and take what they haven't used over winter.

But can you imagine trying to treat with anything other than Oxalic vape in autumn? And how to test anyway? I live in an area with lots of wasps.

 

[user 20297]

Interesting, but I'm amazed bees weren't all over everything during the pressing. I can't begin to imagine what that would be like if I tried it here. Surely that must be done indoors for the most part? Leave it outdoors in my garden for twenty-four hours and the honey would probably all be gone.

James

The bees were all over the external handle of our back door whilst I was extracting. There was no visible honeyor propolis, but they could smell the traces.

 

[user 20297]

I actually believe that the warre system would work better if the comb was continuous as in the Japanese hive and would be keen to try it.

Taking honey wouldn't be an issue: wait until the following spring flow and take what they haven't used over winter.

But can you imagine trying to treat with anything other than Oxalic vape in autumn? And how to test anyway? I live in an area with lots of wasps.

I believe that the comb does become attached to the top bars of the box below. This means that you do need to sever the comb between boxes in the same way.
The Japanese system seems only to use bars for the very top box. It relies on two, crossed, 2.6mm wires on opposite sides of each lower box. These get built into the comb and provide support, maybe, most importantly, when the box is cut out.
Am I remembering correctly that varroa evolved with A. cerana? Therefore, control may not be an issue for these beekeepers. In the UK or with my own Warre I think vaping would work well, but monitoring would be difficult. I will be leaving it to nature.
Using other chemicals is not feasible as the method involves extraction from brooded comb that has been continuously in the hive.
I'm now considering making a hive of these dimensions. They use 35 x 150mm cedar board. I'm looking out for any sort of timber that is produced in similar dimensions.

 

[BaconWizard]

I believe that the comb does become attached to the top bars of the box below. This means that you do need to sever the comb between boxes in the same way.

Theoretically yes, and one can use cheesewire to separate them. But Warre hives are known for "false floor syndrome", with not much known about why it happens.

 

[user 20297]

Theoretically yes, and one can use cheesewire to separate them. But Warre hives are known for "false floor syndrome", with not much known about why it happens.

I like the name of that syndrome ; I hope my bees get it.

 

[user 22174]

Great to see your Warre style hive. I was fascinated by an american adaptation of the Warre principles - especially that the hive should be cheap and easy to make - by Sam Comfort often known as The Comfort Hive. Suitable to be made by a redneck with a chop saw and a power screwdriver.

 

[user 6228]

Beware.
They can gnaw through the foil coating in a heartbeat

If it's Recticel no. It takes a couple of years for recticel facing used as a floor to soften. The walls and roof are fine if undamaged. Cover the floor in ally tape. 12 years using Recticel hives.

 

[user 6228]

Or that they're more robust and have less need to coat everything in propolis?

James

Propolis itself has not been researched except for pharma purposes. The physical properties have been extrapolated from plant resins. But thats it. So guessing why they do it or not is just guessing, because we have no direct evidence of what propolis does because the Apidologists with few exceptions are not interested. Our present knowledge is like aliens suggesting we tarmac roads for their antiseptic qualities.

 

[blackcloud]

If it's Recticel no. It takes a couple of years for recticel facing used as a floor to soften.

 

[user 6228]

the make of PIR? edges taped ? damage? I have 4 Pir hives insight at the moment . these are not covers but 100% PIR hive bodies floors and roofs. My issue at the moment is bluetits. So why are your bees different? at least part of what you are showing is edge damage from not taping exposed Pir. if you give them an exposed edge they will go in. So tape the edges and be careful with that hive tool

 

[BaconWizard]

Hey, can we have an update?

 

[user 20297]

Hey, can we have an update?

Thanks for being interested. I'll upload an image later today. I placed a third box at the bottom about six weeks ago. At that time, not much more comb had been drawn down into the second box, so it's a pretty small colony, but they had made it through winter OK, without feed or treatment.

The activity at the entrance is significantly less than with my National hives but there is plenty going on inside judged by monitoring with my better ear on the external, hive wall.

I've recently been assisting a novice beekeeper who has a wooden Warre, with 38mm walls, that has stood for three seasons without any management at all. Taking off the top-box for the first time yesterday it was brimming with very healthy bees and a lovely thing all round. So I am considering starting a parallel experiment with a home-made Warre that is correct in all respects. When seen in detail even the construction of the oddball roof and the "quiltboard" arrangement starts to make sense to me.

 

[user 20297]

Hey, can we have an update?

I'm glad that you gave me a nudge. I was being so "hands-off" that I forgot that I had left them the end of a bag of fondant when someone else here was panicking about a Warre at the end of winter. The hole in the cobbled-up-from-bits-and-bobs, eke-thing harks back to a previous use of the correx and, as you will see, is not for ventilation.



Being bees they had obviously started to use that space.




I removed the empty bag and later, scoffed some luscious, fresh honey that had been disturbed. You can see how I "seeded" the hive with a mini-plus colony that fits exactly inside the Warre dimensions. Once filled with nothing but honeycomb, the eke will be removed permanently. The boxes below don't have that insert. I replaced the lid and will leave the eke as the bees are indicating that they want it as a honey super.




Above the lid there is a "conventional" crownboard of PIR, and above that is another square of 50mm PIR that is shown wedged into the thin, correx box that waterproofs the top half of the hive.





I checked the bottom box that I put on a few weeks ago and nothing doing...no point photographing nothing and it's hard to hold a £1000 camera whilst you're lying on the ground and lifting a hive on its end. The bees are in two small boxes and building up very slowly. This is a useful experiment for me. I expected the hive to boom and swarm rapidly because of the confined space. It can't have been held back by forage, it has a comparable queen to my other hives, it did have a bit iof fondant after all, but no autumn feeding (or maybe it did?); so if it's small size has to have a cause, it is looking like the lack of varroa treatment. Having said that, I'm not seeing obvious signs of viral disease and the colony is very active on warm days and always calm. Updates to follow....especially when nudged..

 

[BaconWizard]

Thanks for the update! Been curious about it for ages!

 

[user 6228]

Recticel PIR facings are fine if all the cut edges are well covered in foil tape and if not left in standing water. This means flat floors need covering in foil tape Note bees gnaw thought gaffer tape (at least the brand i bought) but not foil tape. My issue is blue tits pecking at outside corners. This will need a correx coating to proof.

 

[pargyle]

Recticel PIR facings are fine if all the cut edges are well covered in foil tape and if not left in standing water. This means flat floors need covering in foil tape Note bees gnaw thought gaffer tape (at least the brand i bought) but not foil tape. My issue is blue tits pecking at outside corners. This will need a correx coating to proof.

Yes - Aluminium foil tape ... NOT duct tape - past experience with duct tape is that the bees can eat into it whilst aluminium foil tape they leave alone. Cheap as chips from toolstation. Nice to see you posting Derek ...

 

[user 20297]

UPDATE:
Yesterday, I removed the eke that had been filled with comb and honey; I expected to find it capped and less populated with bees and to be able to clear it and grab a nice bit of natural comb honey. However, it was teeming with nice young bees and almost emptied of honey. The bees are probably quite short of stores which leaves me with a dilemma.

After a bit of thought, I am continuing with the experiment and won't be giving them any feed. The weather has been poor, but is improving and there is a decent amount of forage still available.

I want this experiment to show that bees can survive unaided and can still provide a little honey, but the prognosis isn't good.