Hives, Sizes and Management

[Ian123]

Yes - almost.
I am way down in hurling abuse.
Actually, I ought not to accept being judged equally prejudiced to Ian.
Prejudice means ‘pre-judgement’, making up your mind before examining the facts’.
I kept Nats for 10 years before developing the long hive 47 years ago. I have had Nats alongside DLD’s - and other hives - in my training apiary over the last 17 years. My comparisons are based on observations. It is not fair to call that ‘prejudice’.
But in the case of Ian, have we heard of any evidence he has ever examined or used or compared long hives?
if not, his view is prejudiced - but mine is not.
.

“
But in the case of Ian, have we heard of any evidence he has ever examined or used or compared long hives?
if not, his view is prejudiced - but mine is not.”

Eh…… mentioned it several times in this thread, gave you an easy way to construct them and spoken about it in the past as am sure regulars can attest…..Your clutching at straws!
So with all these books you read you still haven’t shown wild colonies out preforming kept, you can’t prove your claim of kept hives foraging under 3/4 of a mile, and not 1 beek here has taken up the offer to agree with you. Nor have you shown wild colonies survive better, it’s not your blue box I’m doubting, I’m pretty certain it’ll be a BOX and indeed BLUE but rather some odd statements. Also your contempt of normal beekeepers. Bees do very well and indeed thrive in standard hives of varying materials.
Is that about right?

 

[fian]

The center comb will most likely be at 45° to the square side in order to maximize the comb. The rest will go parallel to it, each time smaller in its length.
The most interesting thing would be the spacing between the centers of the comb (closer together near the central comb and further apart towards the outside?) and the radius of the expansion of the nest (around 16"?)

Three bands of growth towards the ground are also likely to be seen.
Will they be 12", 16" and 20" from the ceiling each one of them?

 

[buffon]

Duplicate, please delete.

 

[buffon]

I would love a pic of the Polish ‘Warsaw Normal’ hive

Google will show you a few if you just put in "warszawski zwykly" . The links to the straw hive on David's page still work. Lyson's version is here Ul Warszawski Zwykły drewniany - leżak . Google translate/chrome should give you the description in English. There is a polish pdf with diagrams here https://docer.pl/doc/n55eess . Page 15 (17 of 38) gives you one showing a pointy hinged roof. The frames have a bottom bar that slightly extends beyond the side bars, presumably to stop the crushing of bees as you bring it out.

Similar hives seem to be used in Ukraine too, and it seemed the Layens probably came from eastern Europe (not actually invented by Layens). There is quite a lot of discussion about them on beesource.com on the Warré/horizontal subforums. For example https://www.beesource.com/threads/frame-sizes-reviewed.369790/ . The Gallup hive referred to on that thread is described here Descritpion of the hive I use and my management of bees. / by G.M. Doolittle, Borodino, N.Y.

the Veevo is made in China I think

Yes I think so. It probably ruins my green credentials, but I don't buy a lot of new stuff and there weren't many better alternatives (incidentally there is a way better choice on the continent). Credit where it's due, their service was excellent, I received it within a couple of days of ordering. I did have to spend a bit of time getting rid of the sharp welds, and because I'm a perfectionist I filed the plastic tap to make it fit better. Oh, and I need to take my angle grinder to the annoying central disk. Their basic '2 frame' is actually a 4 frame like the saf natura, but it doesn't have any legs and looks like a kitchen bin!

May I comment that the Lyson frames are only four strips of plane wood - quite easily made at home if you have a rip saw - or if anyone in your association has a rip saw.

I've made all my own hive equipment just using hand tools (ok occasionally I've cheated and used a router).

No need for a bottom bar in my view - only an obstruction the bees have to scramble over when entering.

Personally I would retain some sort of bottom bar. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to suspend the frame from lugs in an extractor? I've spun frameless comb, if it has had brood then it stands up quite well to the rough handling of an extractor, but if it has just had honey then the wax goes to mush. EDIT: You could line the cage bottom with a piece of wood so that the side bars rest on it I suppose?

 

[fian]

Google will show you a few if you just put in "warszawski zwykly" . The links to the straw hive on David's page still work. Lyson's version is here Ul Warszawski Zwykły drewniany - leżak . Google translate/chrome should give you the description in English. There is a polish pdf with diagrams here https://docer.pl/doc/n55eess . Page 15 (17 of 38) gives you one showing a pointy hinged roof. The frames have a bottom bar that slightly extends beyond the side bars, presumably to stop the crushing of bees as you bring it out.

Similar hives seem to be used in Ukraine too, and it seemed the Layens probably came from eastern Europe (not actually invented by Layens). There is quite a lot of discussion about them on beesource.com on the Warré/horizontal subforums. For example https://www.beesource.com/threads/frame-sizes-reviewed.369790/ . The Gallup hive referred to on that thread is described here Descritpion of the hive I use and my management of bees. / by G.M. Doolittle, Borodino, N.Y.

In his lyson link, he specifies that the Warsaw hive was invented in 1880, while Layens published his book, in which he specifies his frame, 6 years earlier.

 

[buffon]

From beesource.com....

this is what he [Layens] wrote in the 2nd (and 3rd) edition of his book 'Elevage des Abeilles':

In the Preface:
Not being an inventor of new beehives, we have simply chosen, among the best models, the one which seemed to us the easiest to manage, and the most in harmony with the natural instincts of bees. Moreover, this hive has already been proven in the hands of many beekeepers.

And, at the end of the 6th Lesson:
Before describing the hive I have adopted, which will be the subject of my next lesson, let me tell you that I am not an inventor of beehives, for there are already too many; I have simply adopted a model that has been proven over many years.

 

[user 20297]

The center comb will most likely be at 45° to the square side in order to maximize the comb. The rest will go parallel to it, each time smaller in its length.
The most interesting thing would be the spacing between the centers of the comb (closer together near the central comb and further apart towards the outside?) and the radius of the expansion of the nest (around 16"?)

I've seen this pattern in the Japanese beehives. The image is stolen from the David Heaf/Phil Chandler, Biobees site. This is an excellent resource for
study of alternative approaches to the bee-box. Beekeeping with the Warré hive -- Home



.

 

[user 20297]

Yes, the shape of a nest within a cavity is shaped by the cavity - but shorely the law at first is ‘get inside quickly after swarming - or die in the next storm!‘. Isn’t it only then that the law of physics comes into play, dictating how much energy/honey is needed to keep the brood nest of whatever shape up to 35degC, whatever the outside temperature? And isn’t it likely that the nest with the minimum surface area, - a sphere - will use less energy than a rectangular nest - and so store more honey?

My main point was that in your image, the lack of a "box" means that it was the lack of shelter had forced the issue as regards the shape of the nest.
We are all aware that within the centre of the cuboid nest that a man-made box permits, there will usually be a roughly oval centre portion that contains the brood surrounded by stores. So a square box does not conflict with the natural form that bees "prefer" and if the box is big enough, "shorely" they will have more space in which to store honey?

As I'm sure you will agree, it the beekeeper's manipulations within that that are most at odds with the bees' nature; but therein lies another can or worms that is best left buried.

 

[fian]

From beesource.com....

this is what he [Layens] wrote in the 2nd (and 3rd) edition of his book 'Elevage des Abeilles':

In the Preface:
Not being an inventor of new beehives, we have simply chosen, among the best models, the one which seemed to us the easiest to manage, and the most in harmony with the natural instincts of bees. Moreover, this hive has already been proven in the hands of many beekeepers.

And, at the end of the 6th Lesson:
Before describing the hive I have adopted, which will be the subject of my next lesson, let me tell you that I am not an inventor of beehives, for there are already too many; I have simply adopted a model that has been proven over many years.

And how do you maintain that George de Layens received a sample of a mark from Poland or the Ukraine?
Curiously, Voirnot, who is a contemporary of his, developed a 36x36 painting while for another the congress painting had 30x40. Layens tried and settled on 31x37.

 

[buffon]

And how do you maintain that George de Layens received a sample of a mark from Poland or the Ukraine?

If the long deep horizontal hive style was well used and loved in France then you'd expect some people in France to still be using that style, but it isn't as far as I can tell. A quick check of some French beekeeping suppliers, and they list Langstroth, Dadant, Warré, Voirnot, but no Layens. Of all the western European countries Spain seems to favour it the most.

Whereas in eastern Europe, despite the Soviets pushing standardisation of dadant, the long deep hive lives on in its many variants. It is a symbol/identity of beekeeping for those countries.

It's nothing more than a guess, but I think it is a good guess. Presumably Layens travelled being a botanist?

 

[fian]

If the long deep horizontal hive style was well used and loved in France then you'd expect some people in France to still be using that style, but it isn't as far as I can tell. A quick check of some French beekeeping suppliers, and they list Langstroth, Dadant, Warré, Voirnot, but no Layens. Of all the western European countries Spain seems to favour it the most.

Whereas in eastern Europe, despite the Soviets pushing standardisation of dadant, the long deep hive lives on in its many variants. It is a symbol/identity of beekeeping for those countries.

It's nothing more than a guess, but I think it is a good guess. Presumably Layens travelled being a botanist?

And instead if you resort to what was published by Émile Warre in his comparisons between hives, you will observe that there were long and deep formats. That they have fallen into disuse today does not mean that they did not exist in 1860.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

I have a box fixed to a tree at the bottom of the garden. 18” x 18” base and 28” high. It’s been up for six years and has had three colonies in it the latest of which has just died. It started life as a hollow box. I’d love to see what the bees have done in there.

View attachment 34740

 

[user 20297]

This video should start at the point where we see a swarm that has set up in an empty box. Unchecked, I doubt that they would stop until they have filled the box.

 

[Ian123]

double

 

[Garry R]

When I opened the post I was thinking that each one would describe what they use and the way they handle their colognes.
Especially as a guide for beginners who are looking to experience other handling but have doubts.

Unfortunately my Mum passed away 3 years ago otherwise she would have been the person to tell us all how to handle your colognes. Chanel No 5 was a favourite and she splashed it about like water on herself, her carers and as an air freshener in her loo!!! All at about £100 a bottle. Oh - you mean colonies .... she never kept bees

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I know it's winter and traditionally cabin fever sets in but this thread seems to represent a much greater depth of disruption than many from previous years. Light touch moderation is generally a good thing but I start to think there may be room for some "tuning". Maybe use of a few compulsory holidays would clear the decks, especially when the flames are being continuously fanned by very recently joined "contributors".

 

[user 20297]

I know it's winter and traditionally cabin fever sets in but this thread seems to represent a much greater depth of disruption than many from previous years. Light touch moderation is generally a good thing but I start to think there may be room for some "tuning". Maybe use of a few compulsory holidays would clear the decks, especially when the flames are being continuously fanned by very recently joined "contributors".

....to quote one of the light-touchers, "This thread has simply been robust debate."

 

[Swarm]

The season of peace and good will.

 

[Erichalfbee]

....to quote one of the light-touchers, "This thread has simply been robust debate."

Mea Culpa.
I did move this thread out of the beginners section at least

 

[Garry R]

For those who are advocates of long hives a quick question (if that's possible asking beekeepers). If you use frames and cover the frame tops with a cloth rather than a board what do you use. I assume something the bees won't nibble through . I used a linen cloth with 50mm Kingspan on the top this year and although the hive did well on 14 x 12 frames based on the Drayton hive the bees did nibble a few holes in the cloth but NOT the foil on the insulation. I could put the board directly on the frame top bars but worry the bees will stick it to the frames and allow the foil to rip when inspecting. Any suggestions for a more resistant cloth material.