Hi from Hampshire

[dvearn]

Hi all,
I got a lovely email from the Admin suggesting I introduce myself.
I've always been interested in beekeeping ever since I found out that my grandfather kept bees (before I was born).
Having moved to the country last year, we now have an appropriate place to keep them.
My main motivations are:

• they are super interesting organisms
• I want to promote biodiversity in our garden
• I want to improve pollination for our veggie patch and freshly planted woodland
• we love honey

I've been researching the topic on and off for the past year and am partway through a theory course.

My current thinking is 2 main hives with a capacity for up to 4 colonies, with my preference seeming to be poly Langstroths (due to the improved thermoregulation they provide the bees).
I'm sure that will trigger a debate.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Welcome to the forum.
I keep bees in poly and wooden hives and to my mind the bees do better in poly.
I run 14x12. If I was starting again with the little wisdom that I have managed to acquire I would choose Langstroth too.
Two hives is a good start.

 

[JamezF]

If I was starting again with the little wisdom that I have managed to acquire I would choose Langstroth too.

What do you perceive as the advantages of the Langstroth, out of interest?

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

What do you perceive as the advantages of the Langstroth, out of interest?

James

Top space, shorter frames than the 14x12 but a brood around the same volume.

 

[JamezF]

Top space, shorter frames than the 14x12 but a brood around the same volume.

Is that a Jumbo Langstroth you're comparing with, or a "normal" deep? I've not managed to find the brood area in either the Jumbo or a 14x12 after a quick search.

James

 

[pargyle]

Yes ... welcome to the forum ... whereabouts in Hampshire are you ? ...It's a big county and the local climate varies a lot from down here on the Costa del Fareham to the artic wastes of Petersfield and Andover...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is that a Jumbo Langstroth you're comparing with, or a "normal" deep? I've not managed to find the brood area in either the Jumbo or a 14x12 after a quick search.

James

54,000 14x12
62,000 Lang
75,000 Jumbo Lang...so bigger

Loads of sources. Just picked one
https://www.beeequipment.eu/langstroth-hive/uncategorised/langstroth-hive

 

[JamezF]

54,000 14x12
62,000 Lang
75,000 Jumbo Lang...so bigger

I'm surprised the 14x12 gives so little extra over the standard National brood box (50,000 cells) according to those figures when you consider that the frames are almost 50% bigger. I'd have thought it would be closer to 70,000.

Searching again this morning though there appear to be some disagreements depending on where you look. For instance, Wikipedia gives 63,525 for the standard National brood and 93,500 for the 14x12 whereas others give 58,000 (over 12 frames, which is about 53,000 over the presumably more normal 11) for the standard brood and the post below gives 50,000.

A list of beehive sizes and dimensions.

I wonder if some people have come up with their figures based on the dimensions of the foundation or the external frame dimensions rather than the internal frame dimensions?

James

 

[hemo]

I opted for national for the longer lugs and general uniformity of frame size used locally, at the time the LKBA had a commercial with the short lugs and they weren't to my likeing for handling.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm surprised the 14x12 gives so little extra over the standard National brood box (50,000 cells) according to those figures when you consider that the frames are almost 50% bigger. I'd have thought it would be closer to 70,000.

Searching again this morning though there appear to be some disagreements depending on where you look. For instance, Wikipedia gives 63,525 for the standard National brood and 93,500 for the 14x12 whereas others give 58,000 (over 12 frames, which is about 53,000 over the presumably more normal 11) for the standard brood and the post below gives 50,000.

A list of beehive sizes and dimensions.

I wonder if some people have come up with their figures based on the dimensions of the foundation or the external frame dimensions rather than the internal frame dimensions?

James

Yes it’s all a bit inconsistent isn’t it. When I have time I’ll count up the cells in a frame of brood foundation

 

[JamezF]

When I have time I’ll count up the cells in a frame of brood foundation

Could be quite a while before you have that much time.

In actual fact to get a reasonable comparison I think all we really need are the internal dimensions of the frame. Given that and the number of frames in a box then the total brood area of each can be compared, which isn't quite the same thing but I reckon would be close enough.

I read on one web page that there are 28.9 worker cells per square inch on standard foundation, but I don't know off the top of my head if that's accurate or not. I guess it shouldn't be hard to work out given that they're a known size.

James

 

[blackcloud]

Outside peak swarm season none of my feral colonies would ever be able to make use of a 14 12 .
As they build up they go into two standard 14-8's which lends itself neatly to splitting.
A smaller colony in an enormous box wont make use of a honey super with any vigour either.
Im not good with trendy.

 

[BoothBees]

Welcome.

This place is amazing. I'm new too, but in the month or so I've been here, I've learned loads, and have been given loads of advice.

I've decided to go with the Honey Paw Langstroth hives. They're light, so more manageable for me which is important, and more thermally efficient from the views I've gathered so far. I watch Stewart Spinks on YouTube (The Norfolk Honey Company) and he really praises these hives.

I was advised to join my local beekeeping association, which I've done, and I'm signed up to a practical course with them in the new year. I've already received information from them, despite the timing of my joining, so it already looks to be well worth it. I'd recommend the same to any beginner.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Could be quite a while before you have that much time.

What to count the cells down one line and across ?

 

[JamezF]

I've been out at the bee shed cleaning more QXes so took the opportunity to measure some frames.

Roughly speaking I reckon 14x12 gives you 47% more brood area than a standard National brood box. I don't have any Langstroth frames to measure, though I do have a couple of sheets of plastic Langstroth deep foundation intended for a project next year. From measuring that I think a single Langstroth deep should have about 22% more brood area than a standard National, and the 14x12 has about 20% more than the Langstroth.

I would check the Jumbo Langstroth, but I need to go to pick my daughter up from school now

James

 

[JamezF]

I think I have those figures the wrong way around...

The Langstroth is about 20% more than a standard National brood, and the 14x12 is about 22% more than a Langstroth, with the Jumbo Langstroth being perhaps a couple of percent more than the 14x12.

I'm thinking it's the 54,000 figure for the 14x12 that's some way out. All the others appear approximately consistent give or take a few thousand cells.

James

 

[Antipodes]

I think I have those figures the wrong way around...

The Langstroth is about 20% more than a standard National brood, and the 14x12 is about 22% more than a Langstroth, with the Jumbo Langstroth being perhaps a couple of percent more than the 14x12.

I'm thinking it's the 54,000 figure for the 14x12 that's some way out. All the others appear approximately consistent give or take a few thousand cells.

James

Some of the information in the link in post #7 doesn't seem accurate.

 

[Antipodes]

I opted for national for the longer lugs and general uniformity of frame size used locally, at the time the LKBA had a commercial with the short lugs and they weren't to my likeing for handling.

One thing with short lugs and langs is that bees are often on the ends of the frames where the hive tool goes to prise them out. I've never worked a hive with longer lugs but have seen them on here and imagine that would be an advantage in that presumably they are relatively bee-free?

 

[Erichalfbee]

he Langstroth is about 20% more than a standard National brood, and the 14x12 is about 22% more than a Langstroth, with the Jumbo Langstroth being perhaps a couple of percent more than the 14x12.

That sounds about right.
Which takes me back to what I would have if I was starting again which I might do when we downsize and I have to sell the bees.
Jumbo poly Lang.
Thanks James

 

[JamezF]

Some of the information in the link in post #7 doesn't seem accurate.

Yes, whenever I try to work the information out from first principles the numbers just don't tie up properly. I wonder if numbers have been rounded in multiple places during the calculations and the results posted therefore vary depending on where the rounding was actually done. I guess it's also possible that some people have assumed slightly smaller figures for the "available area of comb" than the internal dimensions of the frame because those cells overlapping the frame won't be used for brood.

At the moment though I'm struggling to see a definite benefit of the Langstroth options. The 14x12 and Jumbo seem sufficiently close that it seems to come down to whether one's preference is for long lugs (and compatibility with most other people if that matters) or top bee space, and if a single national brood is too small (as can often be the case) a standard Langstroth deep doesn't really appear to have that much more to offer.

Unless of course Langstroth boxes and frames can be obtained much more cheaply. I believe that used to be the case, and perhaps still is if one's operation is large enough to import them, but I had the impression there wasn't really that much difference any more at the small scale.

James