Have I made a mistake?

[harveyzone]

Hi there,

I recently purchased some hives from fleabee (see this thread and this thread), requesting national standard supers on 14x12 brood boxes. I was told that he did not know what 14x12s were so I said just deep brood boxes instead.

When they arrived they came as deep supers on commercial brood boxes. They obviously come from a commercial environment, and I understand that this arrangement is not uncommon. I figured I could live with this, as commercial brood boxes are not too different in capacity to 14x12s, and started to clean them up, but now I read this thread and see that deep supers are not advised.

Have I made an expensive mistake, and am I storing up problems for the future?

Cheers,
Tom.

 

[Hivemaker.]

So what you have is all commercial brood box's...yes? If so and you are going to use them,then just get some supers,either national shallow or commercial shallow,and use what you have just bought(commercial broods) for brood only.

 

[Poly Hive]

Until you have your money back.

Then you can pick and choose.

No you have not made a horrendous mistake as your supers are going to be interchangeable if my memory serves? Hivemaker am I right?

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

Not quite sure what he has,all commercial brood box's,or commercial broods with standard national broods,as the supers.

 

[Poly Hive]

Nat sups fit Commercial Broods?

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

Nat sups fit Commercial Broods?

PH

Yes.

 

[Poly Hive]

He's sorted then.

PH

 

[harveyzone]

Thanks for your comments.

Just to clarify - they are supplied as 2x national brood (14" x 8 1/2") as supers, on commercial deep (16"x10") for brood. Larger than I anticipated, but presumably designed for high yield. I was really after National 14" x 12" for brood, and standard National Supers (14" x 5 1/2").

As a beginner, this is not very standard, but I really want re-assurance that it is workable.

 

[tonybloke]

I use commercial broods with national supers, no problems. you can use the national deeps as supers, but extracting honey may be a problem.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Yes it is workable if your going to use the commercial brood box's just for brood,and the others as supers,but you would be better to also buy or make yourself some shallow supers...either commercial or standard national.
but i would stick to one or the other,otherwise you will have problems with all different frame formats.

 

[MuswellMetro]

First, How are you going to extract your honey, if you have a tangential extractor or large radial extractor that accepts Nat brood frames then you can use the broods as supers on the commercial ( not a system i could do as i have only a small radial extractor and i did not think anyone used them but Hivemaker put me right, as he does , )

if you cannot extract brood frames other than by cutting them up and melting off the wax, i would decide which one you wish to standardise on either nat brood or commercial and buy supers

if it was me, i would buy some supers and standardise on Commercials for the first year , let them develop and take off a few pounds of honey in one super if you can in first year


in a few years you can expand into the nat broods by using a hamilton convertor, this allows you to fit ten 16x10 commercial frames sideways in a nat brood box

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hamilton.html

SO BUY some SUPERS

 

[Chris B]

Tom,
I know of at least 4 beekeepers in North Worcestershire using commercial brood boxes. They are a good option but it won't be as easy getting a nuc for them. If you're enroling in the beginners course at Bromsgrove School starting in Jan then you need to know it comes with the promise of a nuc on National frames or 14x12. You might be lucky and get a commercial nuc through this route but it's nowhere near as certain. Last year we had 2 starting on commercial kit and they took national nucs, put them in their hives and had to deal with the wild comb. You can do that but there are easier options.
Also you'll find shallow frames a better beginner option for extracting, especially if borrowing the club extractor which won't handle the deeps. My advice is get some shallow supers and hold fire on the rest. If you decide to not use either the commercial or the National deeps then you can sell them on easily enough locally. You might even turn a profit!
All the best
Chris

 

[oliver90owner]

I was told that he did not know what 14x12s were

Yes you have made a mistake - how expensive would depend on what you have got and what you will settle for.

You should have had alarm bells ringing at the emboldened comment above. Either ill informed or possibly an attempt at 'smoke screening'.

Both 14 x 12 and standard brood are of the same frame size and you indicating 'deep brood boxes instead' was your mistake. Non arrival of National shallows seems to indicate that either you made a mistake or you were misled. I know not which.

Certainly including the words 'standard' and 'super' are not good precise terms for making a purchase on epay.

Did you see any commercial seconds, or sale items, in the Th*rne sale? That will be one of your continuing extra costs, for instance.

Not a fatal mistake but one you will be constantly reminded of, unless you decide to make do with what you have received. Two frame sizes is enough for me, just my preference. I still have some deep National frames around and I have never actually got round to burning them - I suppose I might use them sometime, even if only in a bait hive!

Two brood frame sizes will, IMO, be a bear.

Just my 2d worth. I am a picky............

Regards, RAB

 

[Teemore]

When I contacted Lewis he advised that he had no shallow supers. I guess you have to make sure you ask the right questions

New beeks will benefit from seeking guidance on this forum and from experienced Beeks BEFORE making any purchase of hives etc.

 

[harveyzone]

Thanks all.

I do not have an extractor, and was planning on using a society one or buying one at a later point if things took off. Looks like I need some shallow supers :-(

I did not buy via E-Bay, but E-Mailed him directly from his advert here. When I exchanged emails with Lewis I specified as follows:

national deep brood
national supers

In hindsight, possibly ambiguous, but I thought that it was fairly clear that I had differentiated between them and that we both understood. He had not mentioned that there were no shallow supers, but he had offered deep brood as an alternative to commercial brood when I requested National 14x12s, and his advert here states combed boxes "national shallows, national deeps, commercial" so did not think this would be a problem. I had also in a previous e-mail requested wood/wire queen excluders, but he had put in flat metal ones.It was more like my requests for package customization has been ignored and I just got the 'standard hive pack'.

I would be inclined to return them, but for (a) the delivery is not cheep or convenient; (b) I do not have the commercial packaging that he has to be able to re-package; (c) I have, in my enthusiasm, started to remove and bin the old brood comb.

I still think that they are a bargain, and I can use most of the parts but not as much of a bargain as I had hoped.

Chris B: yes, I have got my name down for the Bromsgrove School course (although I have not heard details or anything further) and intend to get a nuc via that route.

 

[harveyzone]

Just to follow up, I have decided to get back in touch with Lewis, to see if there is any possibility of exchanging some parts or resolving things amicably in some way.

 

[MJBee]

Hi Tom,

I operate with a mixture of standard national brood boxes and commercial brood boxes and have no problems with them as they are all 46cm square and a standard national super fits either.

As someone else has said you may have a problem getting a Nuc on commercial frames, for this reason I suggest you get a standard national nuc, expand it into a National brood box. Then if time,honey flow etc permit you could put a Commercial brood on top and let them expand into that as well then split. Result 2 colonies one Commercial and one National.

You will need some standard national supers, a brood box full of honey is a very heavy beast especially if the hive is 3 or 4 boxes high.

 

[tonybloke]

I got a nuc on National Frames, just converted them as per Ted Hooper
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcbkxjWYWZM[/ame]

if I can, anyone can!!

 

[nonstandard]

Just to throw another option out there.

You could convert the two national deeps into 14 x 12's by adding ekes either home made or bought. Home made is not difficult, I converted 2 smiths hives and a national to 14 x 12 last year. You don't have to pay Th**nes prices for things, there are lots of local producers out there like this one (near to me) who produce a value for money option, remember though pine or ply will not last as long as cedar but it will at least get you started.

Of course this would mean you would need to buy national supers and you would have a surplus commercial box but at least you would be using 14 x 12's which was your original intention.

The first year is a steep learning curve and mistakes are easily made, I managed to get through three queens in one hive!!

 

[harveyzone]

Hi there,

Just a quick follow up...

After the advice from here I got back in touch with Lewis about the error. He has now sent me some shallow supers as per my original request, and kindly let me keep hold of the extra bits for the mistake. This means that I now have several options...
- I can use the National Deeps as Brood boxes
- I can use the National Deeps and add a 90mm eke and use 14x12 frames for brood boxes
- I can use the commercial brood boxes
Probably going to go for an eke and 14x12, as they look very simple to make, but may stick with just the deep.

Many thanks for the guidance and advice I have received. Everything now just needs a good clean up and I am nearly set to go.

Tom