When to inspect after introducing new queen

[RichardK]

Yeah, from what I’ve read that does seem like the better approach as they raise their new queen from an egg and the open brood pheromone helps to suppress the laying workers (or something like that). Also cheaper as you don’t need to fork out for a new queen.

If anything this whole experience has lead me to the conclusion that I need at least two colonies.

I'm with you on that - but you work with what you've got & keep your fingers crossed. And yes, I'd agree you do want (atleast ) 2 colonies!

 

[Adamski20]

The idea that laying workers can't fly never made sense to me either: after all, bees have wings.

Yeah, I had read that because their ovaries swell they are heavier and can't fly. But that makes no sense because they can fly with masses of pollen in their baskets that has got to weigh more than some slightly bigger ovaries. I assumed therefore that the laying workers were choosing not to fly rather than physically couldn't. Still can't work out why there is still a small cluster of bees where I shook them out. Went out and triple checked them again this morning 200% positive there is no queen with them. Maybe they were injured during the shake out?

Best plan, Adam, is to aim to run two colonies next season, because if this situation recurs,the easiest way to prevent laying workers is to add regular frames of open brood to a suspect colony: the brood pheromone deters LWs.

yeah, had reached that conclusion already (this must be the bee maths i keep hearing about). If i can salvage this colony then i'll make a split next year. If not then i guess i'll have to fork out for two nucs next year.

 

[RichardK]

Still can't work out why there is still a small cluster of bees where I shook them out. Went out and triple checked them again this morning 200% positive there is no queen with them. Maybe they were injured during the shake out?

When I went through this earlier this season I was also left with a cluster of bees which didn't return to the original hive location. They eventually picked themselves up off the grass and landed in a tree besides them. Two days later they moved into one of my bait hives. I assume there was one or more laying workers amongst them. I shook them out for a second time and closed the doors on my bait hives!

 

[Adamski20]

What has worked for me with laying workers:
Add a frame of open brood.
At the same time or as soon as possible add a LAYING Queen in a cage with attendants with all tabs in place (so she cannot be released or killed ) beside the frame of open brood.
Leave 4 days. Check Q is not being attacked and if not, then remove tabs so Q can be released by bees.

did you shake out the laying workers first or just go straight to add the open brood frame and queen?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you have any constructive advice to add to this thread? You seem to be an experienced beekeeper, so no doubt have a lot of useful knowledge. But struggling to see you adding anything helpful in this thread, just poo-pooing what other people say.

regardless of what you believe or have read, the myth that laying workers cannot fly and shaking the colony out a hundred yards away will solve a laying worker problem however many times it's stated on various 'expert' websites is untrue - a sheer fantasy and one that every beginner (like yourself) should be told the truth about and any idiot still recommending it should be called out, and to be honest, anything else they profess should be treated with extreme caution.
Of course, I could just be 'constructive', sit back and let you listen to these armchair experts and chuckle as you repeat the same mistake again and again. I prefer to help by calling out these fools.
If something needs to be poopooed, I will carry on doing so.

 

[enrico]

When I went through this earlier this season I was also left with a cluster of bees which didn't return to the original hive location. They eventually picked themselves up off the grass and landed in a tree besides them. Two days later they moved into one of my bait hives. I assume there was one or more laying workers amongst them. I shook them out for a second time and closed the doors on my bait hives!

That sounds like there was a queen there....... Are your absolutely sure there wasn't one

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well if there was a queen there removing her by shaking out will solve the problem. The bees should happily accept a new queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well if there was a queen there removing her by shaking out will solve the problem. The bees should happily accept a new queen.

done it more than once, especially with nucs with a duff queen I can't find - go back a few hours later to the spot where they were shaken out, find her in the last little cluster, and give her the coup de grace

 

[magor]

shoock them not for the reason that them ll not fly back shoock them so as take them combs out(cut all drone comb,eggs larvae , sealed and keep cutting next days/weeks it as long as there drone brood ) givving them filled combs(open/sealed brood) and starter strips

open brood do no cancell them ovaries(they ll keep lay even if you succeed add early a mated Q''best scenario'' and ll not rise QCell from that frame but still from their brood as long as its preromones are present) but open brood do keep busy nurses and pollen foragers and also limit the free cells comb space for drone layers to lay and ussually 1 frame will no do the job but needs 2 or 3 depends the strength of the colony so as there be a birth of population change but will take time(depends age of larvae of 1st frame) sure more than 12/14 days since first frame added to emerge so its may better if add and sealed brood frame(s) during that time so all emerge kinda same time and depends on what risks want to take and what you have either rippe QCell/un mated Q either mated Q(more risky) when first brood start emerge

what want to do is artificial broodbreak/block, limit the free space cells for drone lay(shoock and combs out) , do a population change and push olds out to forage(emerge brood do both) ,also you want to inhibit the current nurses transform into mid age bees and you want busy pollen foragers(open brood pheromones encourage pollen collection and keep busy nurses into Vitellogenin jelly) and keep cutting any of them drone comb(reducing their BroodPheromones) and the most tricky is how much syrup feeding them so as keep comb cells filled not free and also to dilute nectar foragers crop ethyl oleate that inhibits mid age bees process into foraggers but its tricky cause it ll encourage and the lay and also the combs drawn(more free cells) ,its real tricky.............

it takes more than 3 weeks sometimes 4 and more so what you do and if its worth or not is up to you and the nurses strength of the collony you want to save cause the olders are those you want to lost anyway(them do no cancell them ovaries till die same as hwen have more than one Q same colony both layin,nurses do no ve problem with that)

bees are puzzle and if for the experience and for the better comprehension how bees do, it may worth sometimes experiment yourself

 

[Adamski20]

regardless of what you believe or have read, the myth that laying workers cannot fly and shaking the colony out a hundred yards away will solve a laying worker problem however many times it's stated on various 'expert' websites is untrue - a sheer fantasy and one that every beginner (like yourself) should be told the truth about and any idiot still recommending it should be called out, and to be honest, anything else they profess should be treated with extreme caution.
Of course, I could just be 'constructive', sit back and let you listen to these armchair experts and chuckle as you repeat the same mistake again and again. I prefer to help by calling out these fools.
If something needs to be poopooed, I will carry on doing so.

I don't mean that you shouldn't poopoo bad advice. But I would certainly find it more helpful if you provided some good advice as an alternative, or at least expand on why you are poopooing something.

For example, I've even asked you direct questions in the thread to try and get a better understanding of why you are poopooing things, but you haven't answered these.

This is a beginners section. We are all coming here to learn. Being told we are wrong is only part of the learning process, we also need to understand why we are wrong and what right looks like.

 

[Adamski20]

Off to check the hive now, wish me luck, fingers crossed.

 

[RichardK]

That sounds like there was a queen there....... Are your absolutely sure there wasn't one

Definately no queen present.

 

[RichardK]

I don't mean that you shouldn't poopoo bad advice. But I would certainly find it more helpful if you provided some good advice as an alternative, or at least expand on why you are poopooing something.

For example, I've even asked you direct questions in the thread to try and get a better understanding of why you are poopooing things, but you haven't answered these.

This is a beginners section. We are all coming here to learn. Being told we are wrong is only part of the learning process, we also need to understand why we are wrong and what right looks like.

Thankfully you'll find plenty of experienced contributors on this forum who willingly give advice, with explanations. And if they think something was bad, they'll explain why. Erichalfbee, enrico, Ian123, BostonBees, Beebe, pargyl, Swarm, Curly Green Finger's come to mind as being excellent, knowledgeable contributors who also display good online manners / netiquette (apologies for those I didn't mention...it's nothing personal). With time you start to draw your own conclusions about who to give the time of day to, or ignore.

On this forum you'll often see the adage "ask 10 beekeepers a question and you'll get 11 answers" ... or something like that. There's rarely, if ever, only 1 solution to a given problem & it's up to each individual beekeeper to take the final call.

In short, this is an excellent forum full to the brim with useful info.

 

[Adamski20]

Have posted update as part of new thread as I now have many more/different questions

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...gs-from-first-inspection-and-what-next.53409/

 

[Adamski20]

Thankfully you'll find plenty of experienced contributors on this forum who willingly give advice, with explanations. And if they think something was bad, they'll explain why. Erichalfbee, enrico, Ian123, BostonBees, Beebe, pargyl, Swarm, Curly Green Finger's come to mind as being excellent, knowledgeable contributors who also display good online manners / netiquette (apologies for those I didn't mention...it's nothing personal).

Add RichardK to that list

 

[RichardK]

Add RichardK to that list

Now that would definitely be a step too far...very kind though & something to aspire to. Pretty much everyone on here knows more than me, I am but an enthusiastic beginner.

 

[madasafish]

did you shake out the laying workers first or just go straight to add the open brood frame and queen?

Straight: shaking does not work

 

[Ian123]

Give a few days at least before inspections after any release. When you do go in just go gently, new queens are occasionally balled when disturbed.