Foundationless Frames

[BeeMade]

Regarding foundationless frames, what type of metal wire is acceptable to use and what gauge works best? I plan on using the checkerboard effect in my hives using one frame with foundation next to a foundationless frame throughout my hives so need suggestions. Thanks

 

[gmonag]

Don't use any wire. It is only needed to support a full sheet of foundation whilst it is being drawn. Just take care when extracting.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I use thick fishing wire in my 14x12 brood
Supers need nothing.

 

[Repwoc]

I use thick fishing wire in my 14x12 brood
Supers need nothing.

Do you mean wire trace or monofilament nylon line?

 

[BeeMade]

Do you mean wire trace or monofilament nylon line?

I've heard of people using monofilament line and I've heard that wire can be used. I'm looking at using wire as monofilament is far more difficult work with. Just need to know what type of metal wire (galvanized, stainless steel, aluminum, etc) to use and what would be the best size/gauge.

 

[Murox]

I just use standard 10lb breaking strain nylon. I guess you could use stainless wire trace but its a bit OTT really unless you happen to have a load laying around.

 

[BeeMade]

I just use standard 10lb breaking strain nylon. I guess you could use stainless wire trace but its a bit OTT really unless you happen to have a load laying around.

Would galvanized wire work instead of stainless steel?

 

[Newbeeneil]

I use 0.5mm stainless which is readily available on eBay and I find works well. The queen sometimes avoids laying adjacent to the wire but that is not unusual.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you mean wire trace or monofilament nylon line?

Typo
Wire should read line

 

[Murox]

Would galvanized wire work instead of stainless steel?

Well there is a chemical reaction in the zinc metal and honey, it is minimal but its why galvanised extractors have been replaced with stainless steel or food grade plastic. To be safe I would stick with stainless steel or nylon fishing line. Or go the bamboo skewer route.

 

[pargyle]

Stainless steel wire ... Tom Bick did a study of the best wires some years ago - some stainless rust over time. The stuff I use comes from China via ebay - cheap and easy to use. It lasts just fine once it's encased in wax but left for a few months in a damp shed and the outer wire on the reel was showing slight signs of surface rust. Three horizontal wires in a 14 x 12 brood frame. No wires in the supers ..

 

[peteinwilts]

I use the same wire that is used to embed into foundation.

... and buy it from a beekeeping supplier to be sure.

I use orange 60lb fishing line on brood frames, and wire on super frames.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Beemade,

Tom Bickerdike (now SBI for West London) wrote extensively on foundationless frames here on the BKF in 2014, and the 25 pages of discussion should keep you entertained. The Apiarist blog also has a page on the subject here, and Michael Bush's piece on foundationless is here at bushfarms.com.

 

[philipm]

I now use stainless wire found that the bees chew through mono filament fishing line.

 

[Beersmith]

I am finding it hard to visualise how some of this works. A photograph or two, especially of the bamboo skewers approach would be gratefully appreciated. Cheers.

 

[pargyle]

I am finding it hard to visualise how some of this works. A photograph or two, especially of the bamboo skewers approach would be gratefully appreciated. Cheers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157643951385343

Not bamboo skewers - I use triangular timber starter strips under the top bar and on brood frames drill three holes in each side bar and then thread the wires horizntally across the frames. You don't need the wedges for foundation - I just cut them off with a bandsaw or stanley knife. The bees then just build free comb down the frames - supported lower down by the wires .. simples

This one shows you more clearly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/9598231575/in/album-72157634865770758/

This was from the days when I made my own frames - these days I just use frames bought in the seconds sale - less effort and very cheap. The bees are quite happy to build free comb within the frame perimeter as long as you have a straight drawn frame either sideof the empty frame.

 

[Beersmith]

Most helpful. Many thanks.

 

[pnkemp]

https://theapiarist.org/bamboo/

I decided to try the bamboo skewers on my bait hive and this is where I got the idea.

I have thin starter strips only to make the volume seem large enough, and the skewers for some support. Still just an occasional bee wandering in for a viewing to this point, no offers to move in.

 

[Beersmith]

Similarly, many thanks.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I use triangular timber starter strips under the top bar

When i first arrived at the orphanage in Lesotho I found that they's put all the hives out with wired frames and no foundation, however I found that in most hives (even though the Langstroth frames were spaced for European bees not adansoni) the bees had used the channel in the top bar as a guide to start comb drawing - the same effect as just leaving the wedge in situ on national frames.