Empty hive but huge amounts of stores

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I very much doubt a colony of that size would abscond in the first place, with or without stores - that is more a trait of Scutellata than our bees
What I have witnessed is bees in the last knockings of a dwindling colony (failed queen) just buggering orf more or less overnight. leaving a clean, empty hive and stires behind.

 

[Antipodes]

Here, I've had ants drive out colonies from mini-nucs with stores a few times now, both with brood and without. The ants love the sugar syrup. They'll also go fairly readily in my experience from those nucs when they run out of food. I had one mini nuc try to leave three times in a couple of hours last month. They kept returning because I had a queen excluder at the entrance (mated queen). The nuc ended up on a water moat, which solved the issue.
I was also Johnny-on-the-spot another year when a bigger (but still smallish) colony took off from a small but full sized hive. They settled at waist hight in a tree about 40m away. They didn't have much if anything in the way of food or brood.
Another time I found a large colony had gone, leaving some food and a small area of brood behind as well as the old mated queen and a few dozen bees. That I couldn't explain at the time (couldn't see any queen cells or remnants) but as I recall, later when dealing with the frames, I did notice a slightly odd shaped cell...probably a supercedure queen cell, so I suspect they took off with the new queen.

 

[pargyle]

In your case, could you have missed seeing a supersedure queen cell? They can be very difficult to spot in my experience, particularly if it has been some time since the queen had emerged. A whole bunch of empty swarm cells, not so easy to miss.

No ... bear in mind the hive was completely empty apart from the remaining stores ... I went through all the frames before closing it up and treating for wax moth (not that there were any signs of wax moth - just precautionary).

 

[Antipodes]

No ... bear in mind the hive was completely empty apart from the remaining stores ... I went through all the frames before closing it up and treating for wax moth (not that there were any signs of wax moth - just precautionary).

Take 100% certainty any time you can in beekeeping! Anything less, it might have been worth an inquisitive look again ...
I've read that bees will swarm on all three types of queen cells but I don't think I can say I've ever seen a supersedure swarm. Has anyone here ever seen one?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've ever seen a supersedure swarm. Has anyone here ever seen one?

Last year was a crazy year for swarm preps. I might have said,"Yes,I have" The bees swarmed on one cell but of course the answer is that it wasn't a supersedure cell. It was a swarm cell and for some reason they made only one

 

[Antipodes]

Last year was a crazy year for swarm preps. I might have said,"Yes,I have" The bees swarmed on one cell but of course the answer is that it wasn't a supersedure cell. It was a swarm cell and for some reason they made only one

How strange. I'm guessing it's a rarity to swarm on supersedure cells but more of a chance at the "right" time in swarm season perhaps....

 

[pargyle]

How strange. I'm guessing it's a rarity to swarm on supersedure cells but more of a chance at the "right" time in swarm season perhaps....

If they swarm... its a swarm queen cell not a supercedure. There is this misconception that one cell is supercedure and lots are swarm cells.. 90% of the time this may hold true... bur bees never do anything invariably.... you can't rely on it as a hard and fast rule.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

all three types of queen cells

no such animal. the only two types that you can distinguish - queen cells and emergency queen cells.
This myth of 'swarm' or 'supersedure' needs to be quashed

 

[Antipodes]

If they swarm... its a swarm queen cell not a supercedure. There is this misconception that one cell is supercedure and lots are swarm cells.. 90% of the time this may hold true... bur bees never do anything invariably.... you can't rely on it as a hard and fast rule.

You generally need to consider what all the circumstances are in the colony before you can make a determination as to the likelihood of the cells being swarm or supersedure and use your knowledge and collection of experiences (the more the better of course) to make as determination as to what is most likely.
https://thebeesupply.com/blogs/beekeepers-blog/swarm-cells-vs-supersedure-cells

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

https://thebeesupply.com/blogs/beekeepers-blog/swarm-cells-vs-supersedure-cells

That is an absolute load of rubbish sorry

 

[JamezF]

It occurs to me that the difference between "swarm" and "supercedure" cells might just be the strength of the colony raising them. They'll build the queen cells wherever is convenient in either case, but a weaker colony, as might be the case when a queen is aging and needs to be replaced, may only have the resources to raise a very small number of queens. A colony that is busting with bees and stores and therefore likely to swarm can probably raise many.

Isn't that why we're told that really strong colonies are required for raising lots of queens and that if lots of queen cells are placed into a colony that isn't strong enough they might either ignore them or tear some cells down?

James

 

[Swarm]

You generally need to consider what all the circumstances are in the colony before you can make a determination as to the likelihood of the cells being swarm or supersedure and use your knowledge and collection of experiences (the more the better of course) to make as determination as to what is most likely.

I agree, colony dynamics are good indicators of the bees' intent. AFAIC, bees make queen cells, it's up to the beekeeper to decide what to do.
I made a couple of early interventions last year, April/May. In both hives, I had the queen on her frame before finding charged cells so went with preemptive splits. On going through the combs, I found only two or three cells in each.
Things were quiet after that, the hives were rammed full and all I was hearing were claims of the worst year for swarming. One single brood colony charged a single cell, they had brood on all eleven frames so I tore it down and gave them a second brood box and they were fine.
Two more colonies charged single cells so I decided to leave them and see what happened. One carried out supersedure, the other one swarmed on July 7th. They landed on a small Willow no more than a few yards behind their hive and just higher than nucleus box height I scooped them up in a few handfuls and dropped them in the nuc and they were all inside a few minutes later.

 

[Murox]

It occurs to me that the difference between "swarm" and "supercedure" cells might just be the strength of the colony raising them. They'll build the queen cells wherever is convenient in either case, but a weaker colony, as might be the case when a queen is aging and needs to be replaced, may only have the resources to raise a very small number of queens. A colony that is busting with bees and stores and therefore likely to swarm can probably raise many.

Isn't that why we're told that really strong colonies are required for raising lots of queens and that if lots of queen cells are placed into a colony that isn't strong enough they might either ignore them or tear some cells down?

James

I would have thought only a "strong hive" would have the requisite bees to produce enough quantities of royal jelly

 

[Ian123]

It occurs to me that the difference between "swarm" and "supercedure" cells might just be the strength of the colony raising them. They'll build the queen cells wherever is convenient in either case, but a weaker colony, as might be the case when a queen is aging and needs to be replaced, may only have the resources to raise a very small number of queens. A colony that is busting with bees and stores and therefore likely to swarm can probably raise many.

Isn't that why we're told that really strong colonies are required for raising lots of queens and that if lots of queen cells are placed into a colony that isn't strong enough they might either ignore them or tear some cells down?

James

To an extent…..What we are told is strong hives will raise good!!!!!well fed cells, even just a handful of bees can attempt to make multiple.

 

[rdartington]

No ... no queen cells at all. Nothing to indicate they had swarmed ... the queen was laying in the autumn but it was not the levels of brood I would have liked to see. Like I said, I had concerns at that stage and really should have done something about it.

My theory, such as it is, is that the queen was laying just enough to stop them superceding late summer, she either stopped or slowed laying in the early autumn - with too few bees left and possibly too late for them to try and create a new queen - indeed, by the time they hrealised there was a problem there may have been no larvae that was viable .. if the queen still had strong pheremones it would supress laying workers. I can't really guess at what happened next - it's possible by then that there were relatively few bees left - and what were decided they would be better off elsewhere. Perhaps during the Ivy flow they had sufficient buying power to beg their way into adjacent colonies - I have 7 within close proximity.

But ... who knows ? They are bees, they sometimes get it right and sometimes they get it wrong ! As humans, we share a lot of things in common with the honey bees .... and we could do with sharing some of their other traits.

This January - or earlier - I have lost 6 colonies out of 13 long hives , more than I can ever remember. This followed the largest ivy crop I can ever remember. All hives were left with more than 40 lbs of sealed honey and were not fed syrup. All hives were treated with OA and all showed very small falls of mites. each hive had piles of dead bees inside, and just a very few sealed brood.
I discount disease as no signs remain. I also discount failed queens as the heaps of dead bees indicated there had been a large brood nest , no trailing off. So I am drawn to associating the abnormal ivy crop with the abnormal losses. But as has been said, there are so many possible factors that nothing can be said conclusively on why the adult bees alll died off. However, a possible linkage of a large ivy crop and bee deaths, I guess, is the need for ‘winter bees’. Little about winter bees is explained in manuals but well covered in Encyclopedia of Beekeeping , Morse and Hooper, 1985, under ‘Fat bodies’ p128 and ‘Winter bees’/‘Winter Cluster’/Wintering’ p412-416. It seems that Eggs laid in first week of Sep emerge at end of Sep just as egg laying seases, so no brood to be fed. The hypopharyngeal glands (that produce bee milk) swell and the fat bodies in the abdomen are increased in size. The ‘lives of the ‘winter bees ‘ so produced are thereby extended to several months, rather than an average of 6 weeks - provided they do not go foraging. But this winter they did forage hard on the ivy - so could be expected to die early - exactly as they have this year!!.
This is a speculative association of two facts - abnormal foraging on ivy and abnormal early death of the ‘winter bees’. It would need an experiment using queens all from queen cells from the same hive, to compare one group of colonies allowed to forage on ivy in October to a similar group moved away from ivy, to produce experimental evidence. My colonies are not similar - but three hives located in another apiary, away from ivy, all survived. But then again, all three ‘extra deep‘ hives were among the 7 long hives that survived close to ivy - so comb size may have affected the outcome.
For interest, Can any other members associate winter loss with late intensive foraging?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Have you considered CBPV?

 

[JamezF]

The bees in my home apiary always seem to hit the ivy hard late in the season, partly I assume because there's not much else available by then, and partly because we have a huge amount of it. I've never noticed that it causes them any significant problems.

James

 

[Ian123]

For interest, Can any other members associate winter loss with late intensive foraging?

No not in my case and I’d suggest the actual complete reverse.
We get a lot of ivy in my area and in some spots you could probably take a small crop if you wished. Whilst this year was good it’s common for me to find bees still working ivy into late November and this year was not that different.
In terms of brood rearing I tend to find bees still laying into late November and generally following the supply of ivy pollen, if this is available they’ll keep laying!
I’ve noticed those with access to late pollen or forage will generally Winter better and particularly with nucs there’s a noticeable size difference between colonies that do and don’t have access to late sources.

If you’re suggesting bees rearing late brood or foraging are burning themselves out, well I’d say they’re raising more bees!!!!. So there should in fact be more young bees that’s a bonus. Again past experience shows a benefit to these late sources of particularly pollen and late season brood rearing.

When you say you treated with oxalic you didn’t say when or how, I’m guessing that you multiple autumn treated? There’s a few finding some colonies dropping large numbers after multiple vapes. There’s also bees picking up mites from collapsing colonies, plus perhaps a slightly longer brood rearing period or just a larger amount due to warmer weather and availability of pollen. Did you winter vape? As well as giving a good start for the following season it’ll tell you just by the numbers dropped if there’s been issues in the Autumn. I’m a big fan of oxalic but still regard it more as belt and braces rather than a primary treatment.
As to the deep frame theory few of any I’m in much contact with use extra deeps as a rule! For myself and most I’m speaking to this looks like being a very good winter in terms of colony survival.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am drawn to associating the abnormal ivy crop with the abnormal losses

why? my bees pile in the ivy every year, more so this year with no adverse effects

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No not in my case and I’d suggest the actual complete reverse.
We get a lot of ivy in my area and in some spots you could probably take a small crop if you wished. Whilst this year was good it’s common for me to find bees still working ivy into late November and this year was not that different.
In terms of brood rearing I tend to find bees still laying into late November and generally following the supply of ivy pollen, if this is available they’ll keep laying!
I’ve noticed those with access to late pollen or forage will generally Winter better and particularly with nucs there’s a noticeable size difference between colonies that do and don’t have access to late sources.

If you’re suggesting bees rearing late brood or foraging are burning themselves out, well I’d say they’re raising more bees!!!!. So there should in fact be more young bees that’s a bonus. Again past experience shows a benefit to these late sources of particularly pollen and late season brood rearing.

When you say you treated with oxalic you didn’t say when or how, I’m guessing that you multiple autumn treated? There’s a few finding some colonies dropping large numbers after multiple vapes. There’s also bees picking up mites from collapsing colonies, plus perhaps a slightly longer brood rearing period or just a larger amount due to warmer weather and availability of pollen. Did you winter vape? As well as giving a good start for the following season it’ll tell you just by the numbers dropped if there’s been issues in the Autumn. I’m a big fan of oxalic but still regard it more as belt and braces rather than a primary treatment.
As to the deep frame theory few of any I’m in much contact with use extra deeps as a rule! For myself and most I’m speaking to this looks like being a very good winter in terms of colony survival.

as for the extra deep frame 'theory' I find no evidence to support that the vast majority of beekeepers around here have bees thriving on standard Nat broods