Double (national) brood vs. 14x12

[Finman]

Double brood hives have allways been impossible to british beekeepers. What they love is one and half.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Double brood hives have allways been impossible to british beekeepers. What they love is one and half.

Interesting that, and sometimes because beeks know someone down the road with brood/half they use the same system.
Without qxs can it still be called that or brood/half/half/half and so on

 

[Erichalfbee]

Double brood hives have allways been impossible to british beekeepers. What they love is one and half.

Certainly seems popular.
My local BKA uses brood and a half with the half on the bottom. I never understood why. If you are going to use two broods they might as well be the same size.
Mind you, the bees around here might struggle to fill those

 

[Finman]

Interesting that, and sometimes because beeks know someone down the road with brood/half they use the same system.
Without qxs can it still be called that or brood/half/half/half and so on

Actually it is a place of excluder. So simple mystery.

Our professionals use for brood often
3 mediums' volume = douple langstroth.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I like double brood. I find 14x12 hurt my dodgy wrists after a short while inspecting.
The colonies seem to like them too.
Ideal size for most of mine would be 18 national frames, they seem to average 14 ish frames of brood throughout the season although the odd one gets up to 20.
Downside of it is the amount to inspect and towards the end of the season they store a lot of honey in the top box costing me some of the crop, bright side is less feeding.
I also run a fair amount of single nationals.
Comparing the best last year a single national filled 6 supers a double brood 8 during the summer flow. Different apiaries so that is a factor, queens were sisters.
Double brood seems to reduce the swarming a noticeable amount too.

Brood and a half is never the answer, apart from that find something that works for you and go with it.

 

[Swarm]

I like double brood. I find 14x12 hurt my dodgy wrists after a short while inspecting.
The colonies seem to like them too.
Ideal size for most of mine would be 18 national frames, they seem to average 14 ish frames of brood throughout the season although the odd one gets up to 20.
Downside of it is the amount to inspect and towards the end of the season they store a lot of honey in the top box costing me some of the crop, bright side is less feeding.
I also run a fair amount of single nationals.
Comparing the best last year a single national filled 6 supers a double brood 8 during the summer flow. Different apiaries so that is a factor, queens were sisters.
Double brood seems to reduce the swarming a noticeable amount too.

Brood and a half is never the answer, apart from that find something that works for you and go with it.

Would it be cost effective to dummy the boxes? I've a few colonies who are happy in a single but the majority, like yours are sort of in between. Left as double with a full 22 frames for Winter and zero feeding, I've seen me removing six fully capped stores combs in Spring. I use followers/packers now and find 18 frames a nice size, avoiding too much loss on the crop but still affords a fair saving on feed.

 

[maddydog]

Only real problem I've found with 14*12 is that in a big colony the first super often ends up full of pollen

 

[Nige.Coll]

Would it be cost effective to dummy the boxes? I've a few colonies who are happy in a single but the majority, like yours are sort of in between. Left as double with a full 22 frames for Winter and zero feeding, I've seen me removing six fully capped stores combs in Spring. I use followers/packers now and find 18 frames a nice size, avoiding too much loss on the crop but still affords a fair saving on feed.

It may be in the future. At the moment I have enough to do trying to keep up with the building of frames and woodwork involved in expanding. Adding another 50 this year.
Once the colony numbers have reached the number I want then I can look at possibly modifying the boxes. No time atm.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Only real problem I've found with 14*12 is that in a big colony the first super often ends up full of pollen

I find that in some colonies. Lift the QX above that first super or do without entirely.

 

[Finman]

Only real problem I've found with 14*12 is that in a big colony the first super often ends up full of pollen

Reason is, that bees instinct is to store pollen next to brood.

I noticed same thing long time ago. I gove a third brood box to hives, and bees started to use lowest box as pollen store.
Pollen store combs need to be brown. Bees do not store pollen in white new combs.

Store operation happens, when I take the entrance reducer off for main yield. Lowest box becomes cold and brood area moves up.

Nowadays I do not have pollen in super combs.

 

[Finman]

Double brood is essential in managing langstroth brood frames. To renew black combs, to get ridd of winter food and old crystallized honey, to get used combs evenly.
Here you see a typical frame where upper part is not used by brood and lower part is becomimg old. When you swap two brood boxes, the upper parts of frames will be in the centre of brood area.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Only real problem I've found with 14*12 is that in a big colony the first super often ends up full of pollen

How did you resolve that, Maddydog? Really, you're in a no-man's land of size: too big to work as doubles, slightly too small for good bees. If you really want a single-box nest, then Lang Jumbo or Dadant would be a more practical solution.

I gove a third brood box to hives, and bees started to use lowest box as pollen store.

Nowadays I do not have pollen in super combs.

This is the answer: give more space.

 

[Arfermo]

Started with two hives originally had to do a split then caught one of our swarms hence thr four hives.

Two more than indicated in the LH Column under your avatar then.

 

[Finman]

Pollen in super frames put extracting out of balance. It is not good thing.

 

[maddydog]

How did you resolve that, Maddydog? Really, you're in a no-man's land of size: too big to work as doubles, slightly too small for good bees. If you really want a single-box nest, then Lang Jumbo or Dadant would be a more practical solution.




This is the answer: give more space.

In truth not something I've overly sought to resolve. In my neck of the woods a colony/queen that can fill a 14*12 to bursting is a rarity. I also actively take the heat out of the boomers by taking a nuc or distributing a few brood frames to the laggards.
Wet post-extraction frames are quickly cleaned up when returned to the bees and give a nice boost when resources are low

 

[maddydog]

Indeed if I had my time again I would likely choose jumbo langstroth but with circa 150 14*12 I'm not changing now.

 

[Finman]

Indeed if I had my time again I would likely choose jumbo langstroth but with circa 150 14*12 I'm not changing now.

More problems when you use more frame types. They are not really needed.

Weather in UK is not so bad that you there such brood frames.

How do you handle the thing " to use brood frame evenly". How easy is to renew brood frames?
.

 

[Finman]

Now we got a problem, that douple brood is a proplem. So simple, do not use it.

 

[magor]

well am new to national just moved from langstroth did that cause wanted be on smaller box and tall it when required either with one and half(my prefer) or double brood whatever each colony leads to or and single brood or and single half (shallow , instead of using different size boxes for nucle or splits) i find them more flexible boxes and plan running them on 9frames each box whatever if single,half or double brood or and double shallows

before took that decision i searched abit also that 14/12 box and my thought of pros was to use only the top bar of frames if decided to go with them due to it will be a single brood box throught whole of the season but as said wanted smaller boxes when to start a new colony(shallow) or when go in/out for winter(single brood?) and i can play with the brood height the rest of the season

right now converted 9(remain 5 more to go) , 4 of em are on single brood 2 on brood+half and 3 on single half and while spring goes will ad each one and the indispensability height by nadir a new brood box on those who are single and reverse boxes on those who are already on 2 brood boxes when top is full of brood and temperature get bit higher giving ladies more space lay

 

[ericbeaumont]

well am new to national just moved from langstroth did that cause wanted be on smaller box and tall it when required either with one and half(my prefer) or double brood whatever each colony leads to or and single brood or and single half (shallow , instead of using different size boxes for nucle or splits) i find them more flexible boxes and plan running them on 9frames each box whatever if single,half or double brood or and double shallows

before took that decision i searched abit also that 14/12 box and my thought of pros was to use only the top bar of frames if decided to go with them due to it will be a single brood box throught whole of the season but as said wanted smaller boxes when to start a new colony(shallow) or when go in/out for winter(single brood?) and i can play with the brood height the rest of the season

right now converted 9(remain 5 more to go) , 4 of em are on single brood 2 on brood+half and 3 on single half and while spring goes will ad each one and the indispensability height by nadir a new brood box on those who are single and reverse boxes on those who are already on 2 brood boxes when top is full of brood and temperature get bit higher giving ladies more space lay

Simplicity is key to efficient management.