New Beekeeper - standard vs 14x12

[Beefriendly]

. For me 14x12 is too heavy and the frames unwieldy.

I think 14x 12 is a very inflexible system as you must have queens capable of filling that sized brood box. If you have a weak queen she is stuck with all that room that she can't fill. Multiple box systems gives you the flexibility to account for weak queens(single brood box) and very fecund queens (double to triple).
It's the queens fecundity that determines the size of brood box they should be kept in, not the beekeepers preference for a particular system. Your job is to judge what laying room your queen needs and provide the room for her.

Time of inspection, for me at least, is not a major criteria. I enjoy inspecting it's part of the charm of beekeeping. But with double brood and a little experience it needn't take up much more time unless a full every frame inspection is deemed necessary....where it's not rocket science to figure out that inspecting 22 frames will take longer than inspecting 11!

 

[pargyle]

I think 14x 12 is a very inflexible system as you must have queens capable of filling that sized brood box. If you have a weak queen she is stuck with all that room that she can't fill. Multiple box systems gives you the flexibility to account for weak queens(single brood box) and very fecund queens (double to triple).
It's the queens fecundity that determines the size of brood box they should be kept in, not the beekeepers preference for a particular system. Your job is to judge what laying room your queen needs and provide the room for her.

Well, sorry, I don't agree ...14 x 12 is not inflexible.

It's a good size box for most bees - even my local mongrel bees. So what if the queen doesn't fill the whole box .. they will usually draw all the frames out and the outer frames will get filled with stores. Unlike std nationals when the queen runs out of room and you HAVE to go double brood .. and then you have even more space than a 14 x 12 to fill .. If you need triple national brood boxes in the UK then perhaps you need bigger boxes for your bees ?

Yes the beekeepers job is to ensure that the queen has sufficient room to lay .. but it's just as easy to do that in a 14 x 12 as it is in a std national - I use kingspan 'dummy' boards to manipulate the space in the hives - if the colony is small I just reduce the space in the brood box with a dummy board and then they don't have to use all the box .. extending the space when they need it. I also run a 14 x 12 Long hive with 25 frames in it and the same applies in that ... they expand laterally and I increase the available space as they need it ...

Queens fecundity has to be 'managed' by giving them appropriate space whatever size box you use ...

Std nationals are about the smallest moveable framed brood box in regular use in the world today (and even then mostly in the UK) - they were a development from the WBC hive which made use of standard size fruit boxes for the inner boxes - nothng at all to do with the bees - just a convenient box that could be utilised. The 'modified std national' size was consolidated as a BS Standard during the second world war as a result of the shortage of larger sizes of timber ... when 14 x 12 had already been proven to be a better size in the early 1900's by Draper and Root. Commercials (also much bigger boxes) had been around in one form or another since the late 1800's and were also in regular use prior to WWII.

There have been a myriad of frame/box sizes around since Langstroth popularised moveable frame hives .. I'm not sure any of the sizes were developed solely with the bees in mind ...

 

[Beefriendly]

Well, sorry, I don't agree ....

Now there's a surprise.

 

[mbc]

There have been a myriad of frame/box sizes around since Langstroth popularised moveable frame hives .. I'm not sure any of the sizes were developed solely with the bees in mind ...

Warré?

 

[Beefriendly]

Std nationals are about the smallest moveable framed brood box in regular use in the world today (and even then mostly in the UK) - they were a development from the WBC hive which made use of standard size fruit boxes for the inner boxes - nothng at all to do with the bees -.

The planks from the orange crates were used for the lifts, not the hives. The volume was based on Cowan's double walled hive, which was very heavy and the orange crate planks were light, cheap available and the right size for making the lifts. I think even bees would object to being kept in a draughty old fruit case.

 

[Madge]

... I'm not sure any of the sizes were developed solely with the bees in mind ...

Warré?

Not 'solely'. Warré did design his hive 'with the bees in mind' by giving them an ideal space, but I think he also designed it to be affordable to people on low incomes.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Warré?

Apart from the fact that he never asked the bees.

 

[For want of a better word]

The planks from the orange crates were used for the lifts, not the hives. The volume was based on Cowan's double walled hive, which was very heavy and the orange crate planks were light, cheap available and the right size for making the lifts. I think even bees would object to being kept in a draughty old fruit case.

draughty old fruit case

Sorry Pargyle.... read that and thought of you!

Yeghes da

 

[Gwr]

I fully agree with hivemaker. Why put brood frames with brood in the spinner ?

 

[Walrus]

What I am trying to decide on is whether I should start out on standard national or a 14x12. I'm looking for productive hives. I'm a young active dextrous chap so weight is not an issue for me. Im particularly interested in ease and efficiency of my different options.

1. As a beginner managing 14x12s rather than double broods or brood and a half seems like a sensible thing but perhaps I am missing something in the flexibility of running multiple boxes?

2. It seems to me if I'm having to overwinter in more than a standard brood I might as well be in a 14x12?

3. I have also heard talk of the preferable option being a brood and a half where the brood is on top of a super?

4. Last but not least - best to start with one hive or two? As you might have guessed I'm pretty keen.

Interested in peoples thoughts. Like I said I'm set on my make of hive I am just interested in thoughts about brood box size as a beginner looking to have productive colonies for his small business.

Many thanks!

IMO you should definitely try handling both frame types and also try making them. I tend to agree with mbc on 14 x 12s. I started with them but changed to Langstroth which I much prefer. But you might love them. To me they are horrible to make and I don't like the feel of them. Pargyle clearly loves them, good for him, but only you can decide for yourself and the best way is to handle them and make up a couple. I'm pretty sure the bees don't care. It is expensive and awkward to change.

1. You will have to discover this for yourself but brood and a half is a pain, otherwise you just use as many boxes as the bees need. I agree with drex regarding inspections
2. I don't understand. A box in the shed vs a box on the hive - don't think it really matters as long as they have the right amount of space/stores
3. I have tried this and hate it and now use all boxes of the same size
4. It has to be two hives to start with, and soon it will be four

Have fun and good luck!

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

A queen that can not fill a 14x12 needs to be replaced.

 

[pargyle]

Warré?

Moveable frame hives .. and even Abbe Warre decided on his box size on the basis of the wine boxes that were available at the time - and to be honest, the warre 'system' relies on adding boxes as they get filled. Slightly different to more conventional hives (I'm not knocking the Warre hives or the method - it had some appeal for me before I began to understand the wisdom in having frames that could be removed.

 

[Poly Hive]

A queen that can not fill a 14x12 needs to be replaced.

Actually that's not true and should be clearly stated as merely an opinion not a fact.

I have taken large amounts of honey (150lbs+) off single national hives. It is not so that huge colonies produce huge crops. It can be so yes but not always.....

PH

 

[pargyle]

The planks from the orange crates were used for the lifts, not the hives. The volume was based on Cowan's double walled hive, which was very heavy and the orange crate planks were light, cheap available and the right size for making the lifts. I think even bees would object to being kept in a draughty old fruit case.

Well you can disagree with me AND Dave Cushman then ..

"1890 William Broughton Carr published details of the WBC hive (Mr Carr was the editor of the "Bee Journal and Record"). The WBC was extremely popular, not because it was a particularly good design, but because it could be made from readily available fruit boxes. Bees also did quite well in it as the outer lifts and roof kept most of the rain off the relatively flimsy interior boxes. A further reason for the bees wellbeing was that most of the joints were less than sound and allowed a considerable total airflow through the whole system, such draught eliminated any stagnant moist air and consequently any resulting condensation was relatively minor.
It was also popular because there was a space of about 3" (much larger than present day WBCs) between the inner and outer boxes that could be packed with straw in winter (a common practice at the time)."


Whether it was the brood boxes or the lifts made from fruit boxes (not crates - there was a difference in Victorian times) I think you've agreed that the size was dictated by the available materials - not any consideration for the bees - which was the point I was making.

In any case... as you will know from many of my previous posts - I never seek to tell anyone that my way is the only way - I present my opinion and methods and people are welcome to take from these what they will. I said in my original post on this thread that hives are a very personal choice and the best way forward is to try and get alongside beekeepers who are using dfferent formats and see what they are like for yourself.

I'm bored with your nitpicking so I'll call it quits now ...

PS: FRUIT BOXES have solid sides CRATES have slatted sides ..

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=131rlo5f8&sigi=11l9808l7&.crumb=k/x1cLpDVTi

 

[pargyle]

draughty old fruit case

Sorry Pargyle.... read that and thought of you!

Yeghes da

I resemble that remark !!

 

[Millet]

A queen that can not fill a 14x12 needs to be replaced.

Actually that's not true and should be clearly stated as merely an opinion not a fact.

I have taken large amounts of honey (150lbs+) off single national hives. It is not so that huge colonies produce huge crops. It can be so yes but not always.....

PH

I know of a fellow on here that did just that last year and so on with many hives, no names and he is not commercial but he sure knows his Onions..

 

[twebs]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Much to think about.

I can't help be drawn to the idea of 14x12s but getting hands on experience before Tradex deals might be tricky!

Back to my local BKA for some final deliberation before I take the plunge and buy a couple of hives I think.

If anyone happens to know of any 14x12 nuc bees available in the midlands please feel free to drop me a message!

Thanks again.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Much to think about.

I can't help be drawn to the idea of 14x12s but getting hands on experience before Tradex deals might be tricky!

Back to my local BKA for some final deliberation before I take the plunge and buy a couple of hives I think.

If anyone happens to know of any 14x12 nuc bees available in the midlands please feel free to drop me a message!

Thanks again.

If you were a bit nearer you could come and play with my spare 14 x 12's - no bees in them but drawn frames and some frames of stores - perhaps there's someone a bit nearer to you ? Good luck with whatever you choose - even if you get it wrong with two hives it's not the end of the world .. deciding you don't like it when you are 10 hives in - bit of an expensive mistake !

 

[Beefriendly]

Well you can disagree with me AND Dave Cushman then ..

Absolutely....you should never believe everything on t'internet is true...particularly some of the stuff on that site. Has a good section on Leylines though
You would be better employed by reading some of Eva Crane's works on the history of beekeeping....she was, shall we say, slight more informed and accurate.

 

[pargyle]

Absolutely....you should never believe everything on t'internet is true...particularly some of the stuff on that site. Has a good section on Leylines though
You would be better employed by reading some of Eva Crane's works on the history of beekeeping....she was, shall we say, slight more informed and accurate.

Well.. as you so obviously have her illustrious tome ... all 682 pages of it ... perhaps you could save us all the trouble of looking for it and give us the paragraph where it states only the lifts were made from orange crates then ?

You see .. until WW11 shipping boxes for fruit tended to be proper boxes with lids, with the fruit wrapped individually in paper wrappers - particularly oranges (I knew someone who collected ~ sad though it may have been ! - fruit wrappers and box labels). Being shipped from the other side of the world by sea and with the value of the fruit inside them they would not risk open sided, open topped crates in those days..

So, my dear Watson - I reckon the circumstantial evidence is that a good, thrifty, YORKSHIREMAN like William Broughton Carr would have been keen to use an existing box for his hives rather than chopping it up to make lifts out of it ?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lection-fruit-wrappers-fund-holiday-wife.html