New Beekeeper - standard vs 14x12

[Angry_Mob]

You're somewhat similar to myself in being "a young active dexterous chap" so the weight issue (Approx 30kg laden I believe) of a 14x12 doesn't concern me.

I started in June 17 with a 6 frame nuc and a 2017 queen and then placed them in a Swienty poly national (holds 10 frames, not 11), by September the brood box was bursting at the seams with bees. I told myself I'd buy a Swienty 14x12 brood box, however that was before I seen yesterday that Abelo are doing the 14x12 which I plan to purchase instead and eventually get rid of my national hives.

Get two hives to start if you can, a couple of nuc hives are useful for doing manipulations or as a bait hive. Maisimore do a national nuc with eke which is currently on sale.

 

[pargyle]

@ pargyle

Everyone has given me some more things to chew over anyway so many thanks!

Get used to it ... we all spend hours pondering about what to do, when to do it and how to do it ... beekeeping is not something that there is only one right way ... there are many right ways or at least ways that work. What works this season may not work next season .. the bees change, the weather changes, you change.. there are so many variables it's almost a constant process of decision making. Whatever YOU decide someone will tell you that you are wrong ... jusr listen, take it all in, consider the options and then do what YOU think is best. Most mistakes in beekeeping made by beekeepers will be recified one way or another by the bees ... it's a steep learning curve to start with and then a long slow one for the rest of your beekeeping life !

 

[Codford]

Started last year with two 14x12 polys - amid much sucking of teeth from my local BKA! Happy to say all their doubts have proved to be unfounded. I have just bought two more poly 14x12s, and two 14x12 poly nucs for the forthcoming season, Maisemore sale now on.

 

[For want of a better word]

Many thanks everyone for your replies. Much appreciated. It sounds very much like its a personal choice! Tricky when you've never used either option!

From a productivity point of view. If you are using a larger 14x12 brood box, I understand the bees may be able to over winter in this without feeding.

If this is the case from a productive / commercial point of view would it have been better for those extra stores in the 14x12 box to have been in a super and be feeding the bees through the winter?

I overwinter bees in a standard National after feeding in the Autumn
If you rob your bees of honey you have to feed them something back for winter.
I have never extracted honey from brood frames... in fact one extractor ( Thornes Thomas?) would only take super frames.

Agree 14 x 12 frames are an abomination..... tried and sold on ( along with the Fastbuck bees )

Choice is yours!

Yeghes da

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have never extracted honey from brood frames...

Nor me, not much point having brood splattered around inside the extractor, only ever extract frames with no brood in.

 

[SDM]

I have never extracted honey from brood frames... in fact one extractor ( Thornes Thomas?) would only take super frames.

Nor me, not much point having brood splattered around inside the extractor, only ever extract frames with no brood in.

Hivemaker, I can't tell if your agreeing with him or pointing out an ambiguity. Lol
Does "brood frame" mean frame with brood in or frame from the brood box?

My money is on Icanhopit doesn't extract from below the queen excluder and you don't( if there's brood in it) but might( or might not)
There, clear as mud.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Does "brood frame" mean frame with brood in or frame from the brood box?

To me, any frame with brood in, whatever size it is, is a brood frame, wherever it is located in the hive. Any frame with honey in and, no brood, is a honey frame.

 

[SDM]

I was fairly sure I knew what you meant and am fairly sure I know what Icanhopit meant. Yet also fairly sure that despite agreeing with him, you were not agreeing (necessarily) with what he meant.
There we go again, clear as mud lol

 

[For want of a better word]

To me, any frame with brood in, whatever size it is, is a brood frame, wherever it is located in the hive. Any frame with honey in and, no brood, is a honey frame.

Exactly.... that is what i do with my Rose OSB frames... keep it simple.

Yeghes da

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Buy double the gear... two soon becomes four and so on

 

[twebs]

Quick additional question.

Does running double brood greatly increase inspection time? Vs a 14x12?

 

[colinc]

That would depend on experience, and to a point hive location. Lost swarms from an out apiary are less upsetting to neighbours than one lost from your garden.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[drex]

All depends on what you are looking for at the inspection. If looking for swarm cells, it can be very quick, split the two boxes, tilt up top box. Look on bottom of frames in top box for swarm cells, if none then I am all done. If looking for queen I completely separate the two boxes. After a few minutes, the one with the frantic bees does not contain the queen, so I look in other.

 

[pargyle]

Quick additional question.

Does running double brood greatly increase inspection time? Vs a 14x12?

Of course .. You have two boxes to inspect, twice the number of frames to lift and you have to lift the top brood box off and put it somewhere whilst you inspect the lower box.

With experience you can tip the top box and look at the bottom of the frames to see if there are any swarm cells there ... but ... the risk is, during the swarm season, that the little beggars hide the queen cells somewhere else and if you leave one,or two, or three ...Best buy a skep for swarm collection, hope they are not in your neghbours chimney (or worse - yours !! - You can always deny they are your bees when they are on someone else's property and 'do them a big favour' by collecting them ... however, you are deep in the smelly if your neighbour happens to see where they came from ...)

In the immortal words of Dirty Harry ... Do you feel LUCKY ?

 

[Beefriendly]

Of course .. You have two boxes to inspect, twice the number of frames to lift and you have to lift the top brood box off and put it somewhere whilst you inspect the lower box.

Several years experience of running double brood box hives has taught me this is not quite true. Same inspection time as a single for most inspections.
I usually inspect the top box only, unless swarm preparations are in evidence. Of course they may confine these preps to the bottom box only, but not seen by me over several years. That's not to say it won't happen, but the relatively warmer top box seems to be where the "action is".

Far more important is having a queen with the fecundity to fill double brood.

And when you do need to remove the top brood box you can put it on top of the supers you already had to remove to get to the top box.....really Pargyle!

 

[pargyle]

Several years experience of running double brood box hives has taught me this is not quite true. ...
And when you do need to remove the top brood box you can put it on top of the supers you already had to remove to get to the top box.....really Pargyle!

If you read the question that was asked .. from someone without ANY experience ... does it take longer with double brood ?

For someone with no experience - of course it does .. and in your early days of beekeeping the last things you want are:

A> Spending more time on inspections than necessary.
B> Moving boxes about and potentially squashing bees.
C> Possibly missing swarming signs.

And unless you have very gentle and docile bees .. potentially a lot of bees in the air. I too have handled double brood .. for an experienced beekeeper it's an option but for a new beekeeper ... 14 x 12 is an easier ride in my opinion. Once I got used to 14 x 12's std nationals and double brood never seemed right to me ... But ... it's a personal choice.

 

[Beefriendly]

You seem to be suggesting that we should tell "white lies" to people taking up beekeeping rather than the actuality.
It used to peee me off.

 

[Millet]

If you read the question that was asked .. from someone without ANY experience ... does it take longer with double brood ?

For someone with no experience - of course it does .. and in your early days of beekeeping the last things you want are:

A> Spending more time on inspections than necessary.
B> Moving boxes about and potentially squashing bees.
C> Possibly missing swarming signs.

Ranging from someone with no experience to very very experienced A@B will always have to happen at some point in the year. IMO .

 

[MartinL]

Quick additional question.

Does running double brood greatly increase inspection time? Vs a 14x12?

Well let's see;

Times for removing all boxes above QE would be constant,

Then a MOST study on the work done, A1 G1 A1 etc X11 for each frame in a 14X12 (call that Job 1)

Add removing the top box on the double brood and before you repeat the sequence you're exceeding the time on Job 1!

So, I'd say YES.

 

[drex]

Of course .. You have two boxes to inspect, twice the number of frames to lift and you have to lift the top brood box off and put it somewhere whilst you inspect the lower box.

On a tip inspection, of course, if I see swarm cells on bottom of the top box frames ( where they are most likely to be), I will then lift out individual frames. It is very rare that I will take out every frame. Usually looking at about three frames in each box ( concentrating onn centre and edge of brood nest), gives me enough information. I too, often do not look in the bottom box ( depending on what I find in the top).
Each to his own. For me 14x12 is too heavy and the frames unwieldy.
My (lost) swarm rate is very low.