Does heat from the outside air and and direct radiation from the sun provide a large measure of the heat required to ripen honey

[Finman]

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What Canadian beekeepers should do, is to crunch physicl chemistry numbers.
80% out of beekeepers are professional.

Their average yield is often 90 kg/hive. Difficult to go and start to teach such persons.

 

[Beecat]

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What Canadian beekeepers should do, is to crunch physicl chemistry numbers.
80% out of beekeepers are professional.

Their average yield is often 90 kg/hive. Difficult to go and start to teach such persons.

Which is what I'm doing at the moment. Before numbers can be crunched you need accurate numbers! I'm gathering info atm in my casual slackass way, and there are some interesting ones. It looks like there is a substantial amount of energy involved in sugar inversion, and evaporating the water out is surely going to take lots of energy. A comb of open nectar is a wet surface with a breeze across it caused by bee fanning, which results in evaporation and substantial cooling of the comb. The bees not only have a furnace, they also have quite a powerful refrigerator in there. Furnaces and refrigerators take tons of energy to operate, just how much is something I am currently trying to track down.

 

[Beecat]

I just found this site:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/thermosolar-hive-healthy-bees-healthy-honey--5#/

I haven't the faintest idea how well this will work. I note the hive diagrams do not show any insulation. Also notable is their claim that they can manage their hives on 20 kg of sugar a year, just what Finman does.

I didn't see any info on the climate they are operating in.

I think the main point is, yes, people are working on harnessing solar heating in hives, they are raising money, building hardware and selling it. They may completely crash and burn, I'm just going to wait and see and not offer any opinions on this one.

 

[oliver90owner]

Now on page 5. Not surprising that there are few votes. Anyone seeing the poll at the top of the last page won’t see the full question. I pointedly noted the lack of a full question, even though I had seen the first post, for those that are not clever enough to understand that. I even made a comment regarding the first reply being crass, I think.

QED, DM and meerkat?

Apart from the fact that direct sunlight might indirectly warm the inside of the hive, the temperature will be controlled at around 34-35 degrees. Funny that? Got something to do with brood temperatures and potential wax strength reduction at higher temperatures?

Just think about these things before posting or making comments. It prevents you from making a right fool of yourselves.

As for the poster going on about sucrose - that is also the another load of rubbish. Clearly they have no idea of the sugars found in honey. They obviously have no idea that Trading Standards can use an excessive sucrose content,in tested samples, to prove that the ‘honey’ is not as claimed.

Of course, some honeybees do build their nests out in direct sunlight, but they are few and far between. There are always, as they indicate, exceptions to a rule.

Get real. Nearly ALL the energy we use comes from the Sun. Even the warmth from the metabolism of the hive had the same origin. Whether it is direct or indirect has been answered. It is all indirect. It is warm, dry air that aids nectar water reduction.

A shame the OP did not know that, and thus realised there was no point in the questionnaire - or was he looking for names of those that think direct sunlight develops the honey?

Most polls I have seen on the forum, over the years, have been seriously flawed. This one just continues the trend.

Let’s put this thread to bed. All the energy found inside a hive has originated outside the hive. Simple enough? Think of Einstein, if you can.

 

[Beecat]

As for the poster going on about sucrose - that is also the another load of rubbish. Clearly they have no idea of the sugars found in honey. They obviously have no idea that Trading Standards can use an excessive sucrose content,in tested samples, to prove that the ‘honey’ is not as claimed.

We weren't talking about sucrose in honey, we were talking about sucrose in nectar, which frequently runs above 30% and sometimes much higher. It seems you don't know the elementary chemistry that bees do. They use enzymes and acids to split the sucrose into two simpler monosaccharides, fructose and glucose to be exact. The chemical equations are in the above posts. And that is why there is is generally much less sucrose in honey than in nectar. The bees have converted it into different sugars. The process is called inversion. Like most chemical reactions, this one involves substantial energy to initiate and to complete. The best source I have found so far quotes an activation energy of 109 KJ/mol if memory serves. The enthalpy is smaller.

Get real. Nearly ALL the energy we use comes from the Sun. Even the warmth from the metabolism of the hive had the same origin. Whether it is direct or indirect has been answered. It is all indirect. It is warm, dry air that aids nectar water reduction.

We all knew that before the thread was started. That is not the point being discussed.

A shame the OP did not know that, and thus realised there was no point in the questionnaire - or was he looking for names of those that think direct sunlight develops the honey?

Now you are just being ridiculous - either that or you haven't the foggiest idea what we are talking about.

Let’s put this thread to bed. All the energy found inside a hive has originated outside the hive. Simple enough? Think of Einstein, if you can.

Oh I see, we are not free to discuss what we wish without your approval? Look if you don't like a topic and can't understand what is being said, why are you even reading it?

 

[user 6228]

I did just reply to this, but not sure where the post went...

It isn’t solely heat that ripens nectar into honey.
The bees invert sucrose (a disaccharide) into glucose and fructose (monosaccharides) using enzymes and the unwanted water.

C12H22O11 + H2O = 2x C6H12O6

True it has an effect. So i looked into that one in detail (a while ago)... its enthalpy is quite small in comparison. Vaporisation of the water makes it look negligible. And the difference in molar wt means the impact on the concentration by weight is also small as well. So the energy for vaporisation has to come mostly from somewhere else.

 

[Finman]

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When bees move 2/3 sugar syrup into the combs and cap it, bees use in process 24% out of original sugar.

Now you are going to calculate every energy change in chemical bonds? Or pick couple of them to be wondered.

Do not forget wax making and comb building. It uses much energy.

 

[user 6228]

The motivation for poll was to see whether Beekeepers agree with the apparent view in the bee academia that the energy cost to the bees of ripening honey can be ignored. The poll question is a direct quote from the researcher(O.W.Park) most often quoted when honey ripening comes up, which it rarely does.
When I listen to a hive late on a summers evening and hear the racket from over 6 metres away, I find I cant buy into the academics view. From a common sense beekeeper observation, something making that amount of noise (in my case a hive with a sound deadening cover) is using a lot of energy.
Do other beekeepers listen to their hive late at night during a flow and wonder at the amount of activity inside? or do they read the books and take them as gospel?

 

[Finman]

The motivation for poll was to see whether Beekeepers agree with the apparent view in the bee academia that the energy cost to the bees of ripening honey can be ignored. The poll question is a direct quote from the researcher(O.W.Park) most often quoted when honey ripening comes up, which it rarely does.
When I listen to a hive late on a summers evening and hear the racket from over 6 metres away, I find I cant buy into the academics view. From a common sense beekeeper observation, something making that amount of noise (in my case a hive with a sound deadening cover) is using a lot of energy.
Do other beekeepers listen to their hive late at night during a flow and wonder at the amount of activity inside? or do they read the books and take them as gospel?

No. I do not listen my hives after flow.

I observer during flight that ventilation is enough and hive has enough space. That is my job today, when I drive car to 35 km distance.

We had good rains yesterday. Bees seems to bring full loads of nectar now. 25C now.
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[user 6228]

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When bees move 2/3 sugar syrup into the combs and cap it, bees use in process 24% out of original sugar.

Now you are going to calculate every energy change in chemical bonds? Or pick couple of them to be wondered.

Do not forget wax making and comb building. It uses much energy.

The bee academics haven't forgotten about the energy in the wax. Any Bee keeper that has set fire to comb filled old frames can see that energy being released. And of course the bees prefer to swarm to a nest with comb pre installed.

 

[Finman]

Night is good to check for bearding, when foragers are all at home. Then more boxes.

 

[Finman]

Any Bee keeper that has set fire to comb filled old frames can see that energy being released.

Yeah! No smoke without fire. One basic rules of physics.

 

[Beecat]

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When bees move 2/3 sugar syrup into the combs and cap it, bees use in process 24% out of original sugar.

Now you are going to calculate every energy change in chemical bonds? Or pick couple of them to be wondered.

Do not forget wax making and comb building. It uses much energy.

I would like to know how much syrup you feed to get a super of drawn comb. we can work out a rough energy cost from that, and check it against the heat of formation of the beeswax.

I'm not about to do energy calculations on chemical reactions unless the energies are large. I think you can get good enough numbers from food consumption most of the time.

 

[Finman]

I would like to know how much syrup you feed to get a super of drawn comb. we can work out a rough energy cost from that, and check it against the heat of formation of the beeswax.

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My bees make the combs with honey during heavy flow. I know how much they consume honey. No need to calculate.

No need to mix here energy term no one do that. All speak about honey kilos.

And nothing to do with heat formation. It does not help anything.

 

[Finman]

. I think you can get good enough numbers from food consumption most of the time.

Yes, I am able to read researches.

Then we in Finland use 100 g foundations. Bees can draw the cells half way with that recycled wax.

Everything is under control.

 

[Finman]

we can work out a rough energy cost from that, and check it against the heat of formation of the beeswax.
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Can you count energy cost, when 5 kg swarm escapes and I loose 70 kg honey?
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[jenkinsbrynmair]

IT does not make the question any better.
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We really do need a like button

 

[Finman]

We really do need a like button

Are you going to make people happy!
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[user 6228]

I would like to know how much syrup you feed to get a super of drawn comb. we can work out a rough energy cost from that, and check it against the heat of formation of the beeswax.

I'm not about to do energy calculations on chemical reactions unless the energies are large. I think you can get good enough numbers from food consumption most of the time.

The book that has all of this interesting information is
Hepburn HR, Pirk CWW, Duangphakdee O. Honeybee nests: Composition, structure, function. Honeybee Nests: Composition, Structure, Function. Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg; 2014. ISBN 978-3-642-54327-2
There is a whole chapter on this
The ratios of sugar to wax vary from 3.5 to 16.2

 

[Finman]

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There a Canadian 3 years research, where theh compared with package bees, how much the hives get honey when they started with

1) wax strip
2) with foundations
3) ready combs.

The result corresponded very well common knowledge that making 1 kg wax needs 6-8 kg honey.