Dealing with excess space in a hive

[BernardBlack]

1. For example, when introducing a 6 frame nuc into a hive. Would you fill ALL the extra space with frames of foundation?

I know they’ll draw out the remaining frames eventually, but is there any need to leave surplus frames of foundation in the hive, when it could take a while for the bees to draw out/need them?

Is it best just to keep adding frames of foundation as they need it?


2. What would be your preferred method of dealing with excess space in the hive, heading into winter?
(In the past, I’ve opened up in spring to see mouldy frames)

 

[Erichalfbee]

You can add two frames at a time yes. Dummy the rest down with PIR
I don’t leave any empty space over winter.
Smaller colonies stay in a nuc.

 

[BernardBlack]

You can add two frames at a time yes. Dummy the rest down with PIR
I don’t leave any empty space over winter.
Smaller colonies stay in a nuc.

PIR = insulation?

I have some insulation left over, so will create a couple of dummy board out of that.

 

[ericbeaumont]

will create a couple of dummy board

Make sure you tape the cut edges, or bees will tunnel into the board.

One year I was minding another beekeeper's colony and at the spring inspection went through twice but couldn't find the queen. Reached for the unsealed PIR dummy board and out she crawled.

 

[Patrick1]

You can add two frames at a time yes. Dummy the rest down with PIR
I don’t leave any empty space over winter.
Smaller colonies stay in a nuc.

Sorry to contradict good advice but it is a follower board that should be used.

 

[BernardBlack]

Make sure you tape the cut edges, or bees will tunnel into the board.

One year I was minding another beekeeper's colony and at the spring inspection went through twice but couldn't find the queen. Reached for the unsealed PIR dummy board and out she crawled.

Yeah I was going to do that, as it crumbles a bit around the edges when cut.

Would they tunnel their way through the plastic cover bit? Or just through the foam bit?

 

[Swarm]

As long as the foil facing is intact you're ok. I just call mine packers. Convenient to have 50mm and 25mm sizes to achieve the space they need.

 

[understanding_bees]

PIR = insulation?

The following information was found at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate
Polyisocyanurate, also referred to as PIR, polyiso, or ISO, is a thermoset plastic typically produced as a foam and used as rigid thermal insulation. The starting materials are similar to those used in polyurethane (PUR).

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sorry to contradict good advice but it is a follower board that should be used.

That's OK....most of us that dummy with insulation do what Swarm has pictured. What's a follower board? Is that American for a wooden/plastic dummy board?

 

[Erichalfbee]

The following information was found at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate
Polyisocyanurate, also referred to as PIR, polyiso, or ISO, is a thermoset plastic typically produced as a foam and used as rigid thermal insulation. The starting materials are similar to those used in polyurethane (PUR).

We use Celotex, Recticel or Kingspan which are the common brands

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

T What's a follower board? Is that American for a wooden/plastic dummy board?

Yes

 

[user 20297]

That's OK....most of us that dummy with insulation do what Swarm has pictured. What's a follower board? Is that American for a wooden/plastic dummy board?

If @Patrick1 wants to be precise about this, being pedantic, when we dummy down with insulation board I would say we are using what I have seen being called, "a division board". When I can be bothered and have enough kit, I use a wooden division board up against the bees and then PIR board(s) after that.

A division board should also block of the bee-space under the runners. When I've used PIR without a wooden division, I squidge a piece of hard foam rubber into that gap. This prevents bees from going astray, but more importantly, it cuts of a potential access point for robbers......especially important when you're feeding the bees.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/divisionboard.html

 

[Murox]

As long as the foil facing is intact you're ok. I just call mine packers. Convenient to have 50mm and 25mm sizes to achieve the space they need.

Looks just the same in mine

 

[Ian123]

1. For example, when introducing a 6 frame nuc into a hive. Would you fill ALL the extra space with frames of foundation?

I know they’ll draw out the remaining frames eventually, but is there any need to leave surplus frames of foundation in the hive, when it could take a while for the bees to draw out/need them?

Is it best just to keep adding frames of foundation as they need it?


2. What would be your preferred method of dealing with excess space in the hive, heading into winter?
(In the past, I’ve opened up in spring to see mouldy frames)

To be honest if your put a good 6 frame nuc into a National brood I really wouldn’t bother dummying down. By the time you’ve slipped a couple of frames up against the brood nest there’s not many left. I moved a few across this year and on the next visit had to add a second brood.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

To be honest if your put a good 6 frame nuc into a National brood I really wouldn’t bother dummying down. By the time you’ve slipped a couple of frames up against the brood nest there’s not many left. I moved a few across this year and on the next visit had to add a second brood.

I'm the same, if there's a flow on and the nuc is bursting with bees and ready for a hive I just put it in a hive with one frame of foundation between the nuc and the side and all the rest of the foundation to the other and leave them to it.

 

[Patrick1]

If @Patrick1 wants to be precise about this, being pedantic, when we dummy down with insulation board I would say we are using what I have seen being called, "a division board". When I can be bothered and have enough kit, I use a wooden division board up against the bees and then PIR board(s) after that.

A division board should also block of the bee-space under the runners. When I've used PIR without a wooden division, I squidge a piece of hard foam rubber into that gap. This prevents bees from going astray, but more importantly, it cuts of a potential access point for robbers......especially important when you're feeding the bees.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/divisionboard.html

It’s not being pedantic, I thought one of the aims of this forum was to help new beekeeper with their beekeeping

I think it was a valid point to make, they are completely different pieces of equipment doing different jobs in the hive.

Your link to Dave Cushman points out that Division and Follower are the same piece of kit.

Division or follower is used for reducing the space available to bees in any hive system

The dummy board is the first piece of equipment in the hive that is removed to allow a working space, helps prevent rolling of bees and bees bracing the otherwise vacant space at the end of the row of frames.

What material is used is inconsequential, I use the kit to do the job without a lot of messing about. KISS is my mantra

 

[user 20297]

It’s not being pedantic,

You're not being pedantic...I am. I think that if you read what I say, I'm actually agreeing more with with you than with others. If nor carefully thought out, PIR divisions on their own can easily leave unsealed gaps which may induce unwanted ventilation.

 

[drex]

In my book a dummy board is a "dummy" frame. Just like a frame it has a bee space all round it. I use one as the last 'frame' in my Nationals and it is removed to give me space to manipulate.
A division board divides the colony and has no space around it, so it fits snugly against the box wall. I use it to keep two colonies separate in the Same box, or to blank off a lot of empty space.

 

[BernardBlack]

Thanks for the tip on follower boards. Never seen one before. I have used the similar plastic one that came with my poly nuc box.

They seem like a good option to have.

 

[understanding_bees]

In my book a dummy board is a "dummy" frame. Just like a frame it has a bee space all round it. I use one as the last 'frame' in my Nationals and it is removed to give me space to manipulate.
A division board divides the colony and has no space around it, so it fits snugly against the box wall. I use it to keep two colonies separate in the Same box, or to blank off a lot of empty space.

I agree with Drex’s definitions for dummy boards, and division boards.

With regard to the type of foam material which is used – whether PIR, polystyrene, or some other type – I think that we need to recognize that bees will chew material that they can “get their teeth into.” Basically we need to cover or wrap these types of foam with a durable material.

I have made dummy boards with wooden frames and MDF (medium-density-fibreboard) panels, filled with polystyrene foam. I have made these boards of two sizes – “two-frame” and “three-frame”. They are robust, and exactly occupy the space of two or three fully drawn frames. When I first installed one of these insulated dummy boards to replace a couple of frames in a weak hive, there was an almost instant improvement in the vigour of that hive. I attribute this improvement to the bees being able to keep the reduced volume of the hive box at a warmer temperature than they had been able to do before the dummy board was installed.

With regard to warmth - I was curious to know what temperature the bees were able to maintain in the hive. I know that there have been at least some discussions on this forum about temperature monitoring equipment in hives. I use clear acrylic crown boards which make it so easy for me to observe the bees without exposing them to inclement weather, and I decided to lay a small wall thermometer (glass-tube alcohol type) on the crown board which is covered with a thick slab of insulation foam. This has enabled me to have increased confidence over the well being of a colony which started as a split last season.