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alanf 

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...14x12 is the "extra deep".
The Deep National is the one that takes "DN" frames, which is the errr ... "standard brood box"...
Indeed. The Dave Cushman site was a store of much technical and historical detail. There's nothing wrong with opinion, there are thousands of blogs out there full of it, and none of them with anything to back it. The problem is presenting opinion as fact on what was previously an exemplary site of accumulated detail and recorded experience.

The British Standard National Hive is defined in ' Advisory Leaflet 367 - "The British National Hive",
Published 1961, Reviewed and reprinted 1970' and previous editions from the 1940s. As quoted on SBKA website.

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/techdata_sheets.html

It clearly refers to the 8 7/8 inch box as "The Deep box is designed to take up to eleven British Standard frames with
long (1 1/2" ) lugs." Note the capital letter, and the brood chamber being "one or more deep (brood) boxes," in contrast to the "shallow" or " shallow super".

Trying to relabel 14x12 as "Deep" when the 14x12 format is not even acknowledged in the standard documentation is just a futile attempt to rewrite history. The text is far from perfect, it mixes dimensions (deep or shallow) with position (super) or practical use (brood or honey super). But use of the terms is clear and has been written in the standards documentation more than 70 years. Too late to change it now.
 

Bosleeu 

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I have tried some14x12s for two seasons and am seriously thinking of changing them back to Standard Nationals or whatever the the correct term for them is, I am sure you all know what I mean.

I don't find them easy to manage at all. Doing AS's etc with them is a pain compared to Normal or Double brood.

Edit: I have to say though that the sight of one of those huge frames covered in bees and full of brood is pretty cool.

The Cushman site is a place I have learnt an awful lot from. Can't imagine it's easy to take over such a mammoth task.

For doing that I take my hat off to Polyhive.
 
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TryingToLetThemBee 

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For those of us who are less able to lift, the method of brooding on three National supers looks really interesting. Any reports?
 

oliver90owner 

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I think, once again, the issues of nomenclature are derived from the shortening of the description. They are all National hives to the British Standard. Unfortunately the 'standard' part was used to refer to the deep box when used as a brood, along with the (normal, rather than the standard) shallow as a super. The shallow is called a 'half' when used as a brood in normal circumstances. Many beeks used a brood and a half - a deep and a shallow - which is, to all intent and purpose, a two piece 14 x 12!

When I started with WBCs and deep Nationals, one of the first things I noticed was that the WBCs swarmed before the National deeps + shallows. One of the several reasons for simply adopting the extra deep British Standard National frame format, instead of running 10 or 11 frame brood boxes with shallow broods above.

Maybe, in those days, I could have retarded the swarming instinct by better utilisation of the brood box(es), but that is history. I went to extra deep British Standard format for less swarming, easier over-wintering, use of OMFs (with one box over the winter), and a few others. In those days a 14 x12 box was not a problem for me to move, let alone lifting single frames!!

Yes, they likely retain more honey crop than deeps - an important consideration for bee farmers - but that does not affect me. Then along came the Dartingtons which mostly used extra deep frames (I have one that utilises deep frames). Robin called his hive a long deep when it should, perhaps, have been called a long extra deep hive or similar, to denote frame format.

My 9 frame radial extractor, bought from thrones, has tangential screens which will accommodate extra deeps. Italian, not thrones slightly smaller made in-house version that did not. When purchased, I am not sure whether the extra deep frames were even considered, but they may have already been in the back of my mind when deciding on the extractor purchase. It was a sale offer, I believe, and recommended by a past member of staff, as I recall.

Nearly all my 14 x12 Nationals could be converted back to deeps - a matter of 4 screws and new frames. They could also be changed back to bottom bee space, but I am not thinking of doing that just yet. To me, the box accommodates the optimum brood nest shape, as a starter, over-winters well with an OMF, and I can still lift a full frame easily! A little more effort when removing that first frame, than a deep, but far better (IMO) than two brood boxes. I have broken a lug off maybe a dozen frames over the years - a nuisance, but not the end of the world, for sure.

As an aside, I don't think I have come across anyone, who adds that second smaller brood box, does it for any other reason than the bees need the extra space. I could quite easily reduce an extra deep box by simply exchanging frames for dummies, if I really wanted to. So many choices, it is not worth arguing about - use whatever box, or combination, you find best suits you (and your bees, of course). I did not need to worry which box my queen was in, for instance, when using one box with a queen excluder.

So I consider one sided claptrap from that beek, just that. But new beeks do not get
a balanced view from such biased entries. The site will deteriorate as time goes on but it will not affect me. I am able to think for myself and consider my options, not be swayed by what is basically black bee propaganda.
 

mbc 

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The 14x12 is an abomination, i really cannot find anything good or useful to say about them at all.
:yeahthat:
Do you know of anybody with more than a handful of hives who tolerate these nonsensical ungainly frames?
 

rolande 

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Going back to pargyle's op, it is a general reference source used internationally (regularly being mentioned on beesource) but the new commentary seems to be angled at just one subset of UK beekeepers.

As RAB wrote:

The site will deteriorate as time goes on but it will not affect me. I am able to think for myself and consider my options
 

gavin 

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Is Roger Patterson called Polyhive? Or are you thinking of that other website called poly-hive?
Roger: Dave Cushman's friend in Sussex and entrusted with his site by Dave before his death. Roger never posts on here - perhaps because of the history between the old BBKA site (which he administered) and those who set up and initially joined this one.

Polyhive: A different fellow entirely, originating not too far from where you are now but running a B&B in Castle Donington. He was not alone in initially thinking that he could preserve and use Dave's material immediately after his death, but all of these moves were unwise as Dave had already made his own plans. From a quick look it seems that he's taken down the material he copied from Dave Cushman. I don't think that he ever met Dave.

Having read the new polystyrene hive pages on Dave Cushman's site I have to agree that opinion pieces like the one introducing the PH pages from Roger are going to degrade the quality and authority of the site, but that it was a good choice to invite John Laidler to write the main PH pages and they are great. If Roger can find someone willing to edit his own contributions to Dave's standard it would be much better.
 

pargyle 

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Going back to pargyle's op, it is a general reference source used internationally (regularly being mentioned on beesource) but the new commentary seems to be angled at just one subset of UK beekeepers.

As RAB wrote:
Yes ... that was my concern ... Roger Patterson is a well recognised and very experienced beekeeper - but - and it's a pretty big BUT ... he does have a lot of prejudices and in some cases his opinions fly in the face of more modern (and I'm talking last 50 years !!) thinking.

I'm with RAB .. too many beekeepers starting out are encouraged to follow a 'formula' and not encouraged to think for themselves and I don't feel the commentary that Roger is adding helps ... it's far too much Roger.
 

pargyle 

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Having read the new polystyrene hive pages on Dave Cushman's site I have to agree that opinion pieces like the one introducing the PH pages from Roger are going to degrade the quality and authority of the site, but that it was a good choice to invite John Laidler to write the main PH pages and they are great. If Roger can find someone willing to edit his own contributions to Dave's standard it would be much better.
Thanks Gavin ... beat me to it.

Your paragraph above is an excellent idea ... I've just scanned the PH pages and you are right ... they are very good and it shows it comes from a knowledgeable hand in John Laidler. Let's hope RP follows this with more assistance elsewhere on the site.

Been an interesting thread so far though ...
 

rolande 

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From a quick look it seems that he's taken down the material he copied from Dave Cushman.
A lot of it is still there complete in many cases with ph's personal opinion written in a different colour at the end. Much as I doubted the wisdom of ph's action when he set up his site it may eventually prove quite useful as a reference to the original articles.
 

rolande 

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That's a handy bit of kit Gavin :)
 

Bosleeu 

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Is Roger Patterson called Polyhive? Or are you thinking of that other website called poly-hive?
My mistake, I got mixed up reading two different but similar threads:eek:. Roger Patterson took over the Cushman site I believe, and Polyhive used to post on this forum but has started his own. I take my hat of to both of them.
 

Little John 

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Has anyone noticed that Roger is gradually adding his 'opinions' to the old site. One of the things that I always liked about Dave Cushman's original site was that it was immensely impartial .. just facts, dimensions and accumulated beekeeping information - no opinions or recommendations offered.

I just wish he would keep his opinions out of it ....
I happen to agree with much of what Roger says - but even so, I concur with the above comments.

I would much prefer Dave's site to have been retained 'as was' at the time of his death - with perhaps just the incompleted links (of which there are several) being completed - by new blood if necessary - but making it quite clear that those new additions are not from Dave Cushman's pen.

To add one's own opinions ad libitum throughout Dave's webpages is both unnecessary and - in my opinion - an abuse of guardianship.

LJ
 

Mellifera397 

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Do any of us know on what terms the site was passed on? I suspect that Dave Cushman gave RP the right to do with the site what he felt to be right. I don't think it helpful to rant about RP's approach. He has a different approach and whoever receives guardianship after him will have yet another approach.

The decision to pass the website to Roger was Dave's alone. We ought not question the decision of the owner of a website as it is their own property. Opinions sent to RP directly on how to improve the site may be more worthwhile as I doubt that he reads this forum. He is a moderator for the BBKA one and probably doesn't have the time.

I just think that this thread needs to come to a conclusion on what we can all do about this point. The cogent arguments of the eloquent forum members who have posted on this thread should be heard by the chap about whom they were written.

M
 

pargyle 

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Do any of us know on what terms the site was passed on? I suspect that Dave Cushman gave RP the right to do with the site what he felt to be right. I don't think it helpful to rant about RP's approach. He has a different approach and whoever receives guardianship after him will have yet another approach.

The decision to pass the website to Roger was Dave's alone. We ought not question the decision of the owner of a website as it is their own property. Opinions sent to RP directly on how to improve the site may be more worthwhile as I doubt that he reads this forum. He is a moderator for the BBKA one and probably doesn't have the time.

I just think that this thread needs to come to a conclusion on what we can all do about this point. The cogent arguments of the eloquent forum members who have posted on this thread should be heard by the chap about whom they were written.

M
No... nearly 1000 views on this thread ... there's been no overt or unpleasant criticism of Roger or the DC site in general, merely a constructive discussion so far, quite interesting.

Dave Cushman, in his own words, was intent on creating an encyclopaedic website as a beekeeping resource for posterity - and a wonderful resource it is. I see no reason to curtail any moderate discussion of what Roger has done to it - the website was and apparently remains 'open source' or copyright free.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/statement.html

Roger was given the remit to continue the website by Dave Cushman and I would not question his right to do with it what he will ... my comments, and those of a few others, are that his 'opinions' added to the site actually detract from the original concept that DC had and some of the opinions Roger has added are skewed very heavily in the direction of Roger's own style of beekeeping.

Whether Roger should/could be informed .... well ... perhaps Roger should provide a 'comments' link on the site ... Although he was one of the people running the BBKA forum when 'moderation' was so aggressive that this forum was established to provide beekeepers with a place that they could air their views - whatever they may be - so we might have to wait a bit for that facility !
 

Thymallus 

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Although he was one of the people running the BBKA forum when 'moderation' was so aggressive that this forum was established to provide beekeepers with a place that they could air their views - whatever they may be - so we might have to wait a bit for that facility !
Yes, my recent and ongoing experience with that site is that it hasn't changed much. Was recommended this one for a decent exchange of views and ideas. Reading many of the current threads, I'm impressed.
 

mbc 

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Yes, my recent and ongoing experience with that site is that it hasn't changed much. Was recommended this one for a decent exchange of views and ideas. Reading many of the current threads, I'm impressed.
Welcome, and nice bass!
 

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